Saturday, August 3, 2013

How Can Saints Raptured in 1 Corinthians 15 be Israel When They're Resurrected to Immortal Bodies but We Know Millennial Saints Can Die in Kingdom?

Brian Kelson answers:

This is mixing things that differ.

First up, 1Cor. is full of the Feasts.

1Cor.5:7 the Passover and unleavened Bread.
1Cor.12, Pentecost and the supernatural gifts, see 1Cor.1:4-8.
1Cor.15:20-23 Christ the first fruit (of Unleavened Bread).
1Cor.15:51-55, The Feast of Trumpets.

The Feasts belong to Israel, and yes, the nation of Israel will be re-gathered at Trumpets but not to immortality, but those of the elect remnant of grace, the faithful Jews and Gentiles of the Acts period, are certainly raised with immortality and will judge the world and angels, 1Cor.6.

When the Lord descended with clouds, a trumpet and angels and a voice and darkness and fiery judgment in Ex.19-24, Moses and a remnant of 70, went up into the clouds to meet the Lord. When Israel was nationally stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, there was always the faithful remnant as Roms.11:1-5 shows. These are faithful virgins.

The resurrection of 1Cor.15 is to the earth because Paul quotes the OT which knows nothing of a heavenly inheritance with every spiritual blessing. These are the references which Paul looks to as the resurrection in view.
1Co 15:51  Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;
1Co 15:52  in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54  But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and when this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the word that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. Is.25:8
1Co 15:55  O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?" Hosea 13:14.

Now, here are the passages from which Paul brings forth the victory at the resurrection of 1Cor.15.
Isa 25:6  And in this mountain Jehovah of Hosts shall make a feast of fat things for all the people, a feast of wine on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of refined wine on the lees.
Isa 25:7  And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering which covers all people, and the veil that is woven over all nations.
Isa 25:8  He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord Jehovah will wipe away tears from all faces. And He shall take away from all the earth the rebuke of His people. For Jehovah has spoken.
Isa 25:9  And one shall say in that day, Lo, this is our God. We have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is Jehovah; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.
Isa 25:10  For the hand of Jehovah shall rest in this mountain, and Moab shall be trampled under Him, even as straw is trampled in the water of a dung pit.
Read chapter 26 please seeing resurrection again in v19, and notice the trumpet in Is.27.
Hos 13:4  Yet I am Jehovah your God from the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but Me. For there is no Savior besides Me.
Hos 13:5  I have known you in the wilderness, in the land of great dryness.
Hos 13:9  O Israel, you have destroyed yourself; but in Me is your help.
Hos 13:13  The pains of a woman in travail shall come to him. He is an unwise son; for he cannot stand still in the time of the breaking forth of sons.
Hos 13:14  I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, where are your plagues; O Grave, where is your ruin! Repentance shall be hidden from My eyes.
See chapter 14 and 1. Hosea 1 is the very passage Paul uses in Roms.9 about the remnant of Jews and Gentiles.

Isaiah and Hosea are not about the church which is His Body.
Those resurrected at 1Cor.12 are chaste virgins (2Cor.11), Paul calls them that and they are going to meet the Bridegroom as He descends to them. See Matt.24:29-31, 25:1-6 and 1Thess.4:13-18.
Israel is the wife, those faithful in Israel are the elect remnant of prophesy and are associated with the Bride the Lamb's wife, namely the New Jerusalem.
The resurrection of 1Cor.15 is to the earth according to prophesy.
Please reference number 39 on this link


Hoss Cartwright said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Hoss Cartwright said...

Ms. Collins,

How are you doing? I corresponded with Bro. Kelson awhile back but I have stayed Mid-Acts for many reasons, but I was thankful for Bro. Kelson's good attitude and for his time.

Here are my thoughts on the "coming" vs "appearing".

Acts 28 acknowledges that Paul uses the word "coming" in his Acts epistles and "appearing" in his post Acts epistles. Acts 28 says that it is two different things. They believe that the "coming" of 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thes. 4 is found in Exod. 19 and 24, but that the "appearing" is the new post Acts 28 hope of the believer. I seem to have encountered a few different problems with that.

1.) I am a KJB believer and I do not think anyone can prove that 1 Thessalonians is an Acts epistle. The KJB has it in the order with the post Acts epistles.

2.) 1 Corinthians 15:51 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15 says that the "coming" is a "mystery" "by the word of the Lord". A mystery by the word of the Lord in 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians cannot be found in the Old Testament. The 28 position thinks that because Paul says that a "saying" will be "fulfilled" about victory over death (1 Cor. 15:54-55) they teach that this negates "mystery" "by the word of the Lord".

3.) Philippians 3:20-21 to me is obviously talking about "looking for" Christ's coming and it seems like Paul is talking about the same thing as 1 Cor. 15:38-58. You cannot "look for" Christ's "appearing" if you did not even know He was "coming"!:) The coming and appearing are the same thing.

What do you think about these...(note stared words *)

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the *appearing of Jesus Christ:

James 5:
[7] Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the *coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
[8] Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the *coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Here is my good one....:)

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall *appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his *coming.

Is Peter teaching the post Acts 28 hope and is James teaching the pre-Acts 28 hope? It seems that John refers to an appearing and a coming as the same thing. Any thoughts? (not starting a debate here, I'm just wondering what you believe about those points)
-Bro. Eli "Hoss" Caldwell

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, Hoss,

I deleted your duplicate comment.

I'm going to post Brian Kelson's reply to your comment below, but I'd like to point out just for the record that the books of the NT are arranged from largest to smallest, and they are not in any particular doctrinal order anyway.

Thank you for your interest in this blog!


Deborah Collins said...

Here's Brian Kelson's response to your comments, Hoss:

Most Acts28ers recognize both these words, "appearing' and "coming" or forms of these words occur either side of Acts 28 and it is not the occurrence that defines the hope, but the information accompanying the use of these words either side of Acts 28. Prior to Acts 28 the hope was the “second” coming of the Lord at Trumpets; His parousia, the personal presence of the Lord with those believers on the earth.

The order of the NT books is not the issue; what is important is the content. We do not study God’s Word by any order that man decided to use when finalizing the cannon. If that were the case the last letter of Paul would be that to Philemon where as many place 2Timothy as the last written.

Paul had many mysteries revealed to Him, not all the same, and not all about our present dispensation of Grace. Here is 1Cor.15; 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

The Mystery Paul spoke about was the fact that not all of them at that time would die but all (whether living or dead) would be changed WHEN the Lord returned at the trumpet’s sound. The Feast of Trumpets follows Pentecost and these things are Israel’s salvation revealed in the OT, not ours hid away from the OT writers. Paul clearly writes that when that Trumpet sounds, then “shall be brought to pass the saying that is written”. This mystery of 1Cor.15 is the anticipation of fulfilment of prophesy, not The Mystery hid in God from the beginning of the world. Mid Acts teaching fails to distinguish things differing and mixes together the teachings in Paul which must be kept separate. I also wrote extensively to brother Eli, that the resurrection here is that of Is.25:8 and Hosea 13:14 which he chooses to ignore in these comments to keep his Mid Acts view. Both Isaiah and Hosea are about the promised restoration of Israel as a reading of those prophesies will show. See Is.25 and Hosea 1 and 14. Hosea is used by Paul in Roms.9:27-28 where the remnant of believing Jews and Gentiles were also of prophesy, not a purpose hidden away from ages and generations. The Acts period believers were not the church which is His Body; they were an elect remnant of grace, Roms.9:23-26 and 11:1-6.

To be cont'd

Deborah Collins said...

Bro. Kelson continues: Regarding Philippians 3:20-21, The coming and the Appearing are not the same event but are phases which reveal the Lord’s glorious entering into His Kingdom. The coming is associated with His return to the earth and to save Israel. The remnant, those faithful up until Acts 28, would be honored with that meeting in the air and clouds at His coming, 1Cor.15, 1Thess.4 which are totally Jewish in themes is the true things foreseen in Ex.19 and 24. We, the church His Body will appear with Him far above the air and the clouds, in the heavenly places where the Head appears up there seated at the Father’s right, Col.3:1-4. The Father is not seated in the clouds or the air in 1Thess.4. Again, Mid-Acts fails to separate the things differing in Paul. Philippians 20 assures us our citizenship is in heaven and is written after Acts 28, after the OT hope of 1Cor.15 had been put aside. Not one person in Isaiah or Hosea was promised citizenship in heaven and Hosea and Isaiah are the basis of the hope of 1Cor.15.

Regarding 1 Peter 1:7, Correct, we have recognized that writers used these words prior to Acts 28. Indeed, the Lord said he would be seen at the Father’s right and coming in the clouds of heaven in Matt.26:64-65. First He would be seen at the right hand of God, but not one

was told that they would appear with him there when that happened. When He appeared up there it was a sign to Israel after which every tribe (of Israel) would see Him coming in the clouds and again, the Trumpet blast accompanying these things, Matt.24:29-31.

So turning to Peter as brother Eli has done, we find the context not helpful to his Mid-Acts position; 1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

We notice that this appearing of Christ is nothing more than the visible sight of Christ at the Father’s right hand which was followed by His coming in the clouds. Peter being one who heard the Lord speak of these things in Matthew. Now, the salvation of 1Peter1 is not the truths of The Mystery of Ephesians, since the salvation Peter is writing about is the same salvation the prophets “enquired and searched diligently of the grace that should come to you” (Jews). Peter being an apostle of the circumcision was writing to Jews whose inheritance was only reserved in heaven. 1Pet.1:24-25 is a direct reference to Isaiah 40 which has nothing to do with any hope in the heavenly places. Peter, like Paul in the Acts period, writes of Hosea in 1Pet.2:10 and also the stumbling stone prophesied in Isiah 28 in v:6-8. BTW, Paul uses this same Is.28 reference in Roms.10:11 and also uses Is.40 in Roms.11. Fancy Paul and Peter using the same OT prophets during the Acts period? So continuing in Peter, we find that in chapter 3:22, he knew Christ was raised to the Father’s right and would appear there, but Paul and Peter’s hope of the Acts period was not our hope today. Peter was not expecting to appear with Christ up there since he wrote when the “end of all things was at hand”, 4:7. Peter uses the word appear again in 5:4 but Christ is not the Head, but the Chief Shepherd. The fact that Peter uses the word appear when he wrote about the salvation of the prophets, proves that the appearing was nothing more than the appearing of Christ at the Father’s right, the sign to Israel and the first step in His coming in the clouds to the earth.

To be cont'd.

Deborah Collins said...

Bro. Kelson continues: In 2Pet.3 Peter is writing about the Lord’s coming and the great events of prophesy preceding and following that event. The coming of the Lord in Peter is linked with the “day of the Lord” and the day of the Lord is about his earthly Kindom; 2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Paul writes about the day of the Lord, the thief in 1Thess.5. Again, Peter and Paul on the same page during the Acts period, only after Acts 28 does Paul alone, speak of the appearing as the hope of our calling.

James 5:

[7] Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the *coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

[8] Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the *coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Again, James wrote when the coming of the Lord was nigh, as did Peter and Paul during Acts. The coming of the Lord, the Day of the Lord are all events of prophesy and were the great hope themes of the Acts period but put aside when the nation of Israel was put aside at Acts 28.

To be cont'd.

Deborah Collins said...

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall *appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his *coming.

As we have pointed out, John was also one of those who heard Christ speak of his appearing in heaven as a sign, Matt.24. The appearing is not a sign to Israel after Acts 28. So all the tribes of the earth would see Christ at the father’s right as the first phase of His coming. John also wrote in the last days of the Acts period; 1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Paul, Peter, and now John, the writer of Revelation, are unanimous; the coming of the Lord to the earth was the hope during Acts when it was the end of the ages. They knew the Lord would appear at the Father’s right, but that appearing was not the hope they held. They would not go up and be joined with Christ when He appeared, they would be on the earth waiting for His coming; 1Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul and all believers, Jew and Gentile, were waiting for the Lord to come out from heaven to them, during Acts. They would see Him at the Father’s right, and then as He descended to the earth, they would go up and MEET him as he came to them. The Bridegroom does not come for the Bride in the east; the Bridegroom comes TO the Bride. Not once in Scripture is MEET used of anyone going to meet a dignitary coming

to them and all then returning to the place from which the dignitary came. NO! Those going to meet then accompany the dignitary to their place of abode.

Is Peter teaching the post Acts 28 hope and is James teaching the pre-Acts 28 hope? It seems that John refers to an appearing and a coming as the same thing. Any thoughts? (not starting a debate here, I'm just wondering what you believe about those points) -Bro. Eli "Hoss" Caldwell

Peter, Paul, James and John during the Acts period, are using the same prophesies or referring to the prophets. Peter Paul, James and John are saying it is the end of the age, the last days, and the Day of the Lord was fast approaching. Peter, Paul, James and John were saying the Lord was coming back to the earth as He came to the earth at His first coming. The second coming is like the first; to the earth.

Peter, Paul, James and John knew nothing of the post Acts hope of the Appearing when they wrote those Acts period letters.

After Acts 28, only Paul wrote of the Appearing as the new hope and not once did Paul use parousia or coming as our hope. The reason is simple. The coming was to the earth and that was the hope up until Acts 28, but after Acts 28, we are not to be blessed on the earth, but with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places and when Christ appears up there, we shall appear with Him up there and we will have left the earth far behind.

Brian R Kelson

Hoss Cartwright said...

Thanks! (Sorry I accidently posted the comment twice);)

Yeah Bro. Kelson sent me a reply to my comment on this blog through email.

Now that I look at the subject more closely, the internal evidence for Thessalonians seems to indicate that it was written during Acts. However, I must disagree about the NT books being in "largest to smallest".

Hebrews comes after Philemon, Revelation after Jude, Jude comes after 3 John and 2 John, 3 John comes after 2 John, 1 John comes after 1 Peter (more words), and both first John and first Peter are longer than James.

As a Mid-Acts Dispy (MAD) I see the books of the NT in perfect dispensational order (Gospels-Early Acts, Paul's writings, and Hebrews-Revelation. Below is what my MAD Pastor says about the order of Paul's writings, (and the dating of Thessalonians to which I think you and Br. Kelson are right about). Thanks! --Bro. Eli ("Hoss")

"I agree that the books are arranged according to dispensational order. I believe Paul’s epistles are arranged according to dispensational content, not whether Acts or post Acts. He taught the same hope in both Acts and post Acts epistles.

Romans - Galatians = Cross, Justification

Ephesians - Colossians = Church, Sanctification

Thessalonians = Coming, Glorification

Timothy - Titus = pastoral

Philemon = illustration of grace doctrines

Internal evidence that 1 Thessalonians was written in Acts period:

The epistle is from Paul, Silvanus, and Timotheus (1:1). Silas and Timothy were with Paul when he started the church and stayed there when he had to depart (Acts 17:14). Paul was greatly concerned for the new church in much affliction. At Athens he sent for Silas and Timothy. When Timothy came he sent him back to check on them and further ground them in the faith. Silas and Timothy both joined Paul at Corinth (Acts 18:5). Timothy gave Paul the report on the church at Thessalonica. It seems that he immediately wrote 1 Thessalonians from Corinth based on that report. Timothy and Silas were with Paul when he wrote the letter (1 Thess. 1:1). The content of the letter bears out the fact that Paul had only been away from them a short time and had not yet returned to see them when he wrote the letter. He returned to Thessalonica in Acts 20:1-5 (Thessalonica is in Macedonia). "

1Th 2:17 But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire.

1Th 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

1 Th 3:1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;

1Th 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

1Th 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.

1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

1Th 3:5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.

1Th 3:6 But NOW when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:

1Th 3:7 Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith:

1Th 3:8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.

1Th 3:9 For what thanks can we render to God again for you, for all the joy wherewith we joy for your sakes before our God;

1Th 3:10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?

1Th 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

Deborah Collins said...

Thanks for responding, Hoss! I apologize! I meant to write that Paul's epistles are laid out according to size, with the exception of 2 Thessalonians to keep these two books together:

Bible Chapter Verse Word Count

Romans 9447
1 Corinthians 9489 *
2 Corinthians 6092 *
Galations 3098
Ephesians 3039
Pilippians 2003
Colossians 1998
1 Thessalonians 1857
2 Thessalonians 1042
1 Timothy 2269 *
2 Timothy 1703 *
Titus 921
Philemon 445

Other than that, I don't believe doctrine played any part in the ordering, and I also don't agree that Paul taught the same hope in both the Acts period epistles and the post-Acts epistles. Earthly hope in Acts; heavenly hope in post-Acts.

I do agree that Thessalonians were written in the Acts period and that's why they portray the earthly hope of the kingdom to come.