Sunday, October 25, 2009


"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,
which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way,
nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities
and powers,
he made a shew of them openly;
triumphing over them in it. Let no man
therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday,
or of the new moon,
or of the sabbath days;
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
(Colossians 2:14-17)

I've had the opportunity to explore the doctrines of Seventh-Day Adventism through several personal relationships with those who adhere to it and from visits to Seventh-Day Adventist gatherings. Seventh-Day Adventists with whom I've had contact have been invariably friendly and generous people who obviously love the Lord but have wandered into legalism in their zeal to serve him. Many Adventists are saved and sealed saints who were later led astray by the movement to observe the Sabbath and are like the believers to which Paul wrote, "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." (Gal. 4:9-11). Others are longtime Adventists who, in their study of the Scriptures, are confronted with the gospel of grace and believe it but continue to observe the Sabbath. Then there are those Adventists who still need to hear and believe the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Rom. 3:28).
Recently, I ran across a manuscript written by Kerry B. Wynne, a former third generation Adventist, in association with William H. Hohmann, a former Worldwide Church of God (also Sabbatarean) member, "Sabbath Impossibilities: History of Adventism's Long War Against Truth, etc." In their compelling document, they present evidence for the fact that Seventh-Day Adventist leaders knew at least 40 years before 1888 that weekly Sabbath-keeping was one of the "ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us," that has been taken out of the way by Christ, who nailed it to his cross, completely blotting it out. They were also aware that contrary to their teaching, worship by Christians on a day other than the Sabbath began hundreds of years earlier than the formal establishment of the Roman Catholic Church, at whose door they lay blame for changing "times and seasons." Since that time, the authors insist, an ongoing effort has been made by Adventist leaders to prevent their members from learning this scriptural truth. Why? Money, for one thing. Adventism is an international, multi-million dollar industry. But can't they just give up the idea of Sabbath-keeping but still hold to their other doctrines? All of their distinctive doctrines regarding Bible prophecy and their central pillar doctrine of "the investigative judgment" are based on visions and messages reportedly received from the Lord by their founding prophetess, Ellen G. White, in the mid-1800's. If the legitimacy of her vision regarding the necessity for today's church to observe the weekly Sabbath is shattered, the rest of their peculiar doctrines will also fall like dominoes behind it!
It's been a source of wonder to me how the SDA church has existed for so long despite the fact that it's been proven that Mrs. White plagiarized much of the content of works she published, which number well over 5,000 items. Also, the number of failed prophecies which she made would certainly qualify her, according to God's test for a false prophet in Deuteronomy 18:20-22, as someone "deceiving and being deceived." (2 Tim. 3:13). Adventists, when confronted with these truths, will quickly insist that they don't consider White to be a prophet but that by using the Holy Scriptures, she pointed the church back to honoring the Lord by keeping his commandments.
As in all cases of cultish works-salvation doctrines being promulgated by various "Christian" groups, the answer lies in their failure to recognize which section of God's word is addressed specifically to the body of Christ today. Under God's grace, made known through his apostle of the Gentiles, Paul, we enjoy the liberty that only adult sons thoroughly equipped with grace doctrine have the authority to exercise. To return to Israel's law covenants with God is to foolishly bind ourselves with the cords of a performance system by which even Israel could not win God's approval. When we realize that the Lord Jesus Christ is the only person to ever win God's complete approval, and that by trusting in his shed blood, burial, and resurrection we are imputed with his perfect righteousness that cannot be improved upon by our own efforts, then we become truly free to serve him as ambassadors of his grace.
Seventh-Day Adventists and others who seek to serve God by keeping ordinances which have now been blotted out: you will find complete rest from all your labors in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ, who has done it all for us.
P. S. Here's an interesting article refuting SDA's investigative judgment doctrine with Scripture.


Anonymous said...

Col 2 states very clearly that the ordinences and sabbaths are in the "handwritten book" (by moses),nailed to the cross,- not to be confused with the Ten Commandments written by God. Please do not confuse fullfilling a condition of receiving grace as to "earning" salvation. ..."that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish... Jn3:16" would you agree that atleast in this verse a condition would be to believe? surely it wouldnt "earning" the promise of everlasting life? SDA believe that obedience THRU CHRIST is fullfilling a condition not earning! All should be wary of any "gospel" that allows sin, this is a deception of Satan! If you love me keep my commandments.

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, Anonymous,

Thanks for your comment.

I'm aware that SDA's consider "the handwriting of ordinances" to be the extra laws placed in the side of the Ark by Moses. Yes, these were handwritten, but then so were the Ten Commandments - by God himself! There certainly weren't any printing presses in those days. So this would be a matter of interpretation.

Under the Mosaic Law, of which the ordinances were simply an extension giving more detail, refusal to observe the Sabbath day was considered a "trespass" of the law, punishable by stoning. In Col 2, just prior to the statement about these ordinances being blotted out, is this, "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses." (Col. 2:13) This would pertain to every law, including Sabbath keeping, which is then alluded to in v. 16.

In Acts 15, the kingdom (Israel's) apostles recognized that Gentile believers' hearts were "purified by faith" (v. 9), not by law-keeping, which Peter referred to as, "a yoke...which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear." (v. 10). Gentiles were then released from obedience to the law, except for a few practical considerations (which were never made conditions for salvation).

I have to wonder what you mean by "obedience THRU CHRIST is fulfilling a condition not earning." Salvation by grace can have no conditions or it would cease to be grace.

True believers are given power over sin, as well as freedom from the penalty of sin. Free will makes it possible for EVERYONE to sin; only grace provides forgiveness for it before it occurs! (Eph. 4:32).

The main thing is to not add conditions to a gospel of pure grace. Obedience to law is not what God is looking for today, but he wants us to allow Christ to live thru us.


Anonymous said...

Many people get confused and think that the old testament is law and the new is grace. but the same grace in new testament is the same saving grace in the old.(Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord). Even the law being written in our hearts is the samw law jesus wanted written in israel hearts. Jer. 31:33. The same standard of judgement that applied in the old must be the same in the new! Are u saying that those who lived before christ are judged by the standard of the law and in the new there is no law therefore another standard is used to judge? Doesnt sound fair or just.
Clearly we are saved by grace thru faith, but to suggest that there is no condition to accepting this grace is the same as saying WE CAN KNOWINGLY SIN and still be saved. This is unacceptable to SDA. Here are just a few conditions mentioned in Bible:
if we Keep in memory-1 Cor 15:1-2
keep His Comm.- 1John 3:24
DO Things that please- John 8:29
Receive truth 2Thess. 2:10
Not to neglect Heb. 2:3
Obey Him Heb. 5:9
Repent 1:15
born again- John 3:3
believe- John 3:16 ect....

Deborah said...

Hi, again, Anonymous,

This blog is devoted to making known the boundaries God has placed within his word in order that we may obey 2 Tim. 2:15: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." I urge you to read such articles as "Prophecy vs. Mystery" or "You Can't Have It Both Ways," in order to understand the mid-Acts dispensationalism we are supporting.

Basically, every believer in history is saved by God's grace, as he does not owe us anything. However, God's requirements for appropriating that grace have changed over time. When dealing with his earthly people that developed into the nation of Israel, God required faith in himself, belief in what he told them, & an appropriate response of obedience (or hearkening) to that particular message. Israel & the earth program is temporarily set aside at this time, & God has initiated a new program to form a heavenly body of believers thru a message given from the risen Christ thru a new apostle of the Gentiles, Paul. This new message offers salvation as a free gift for simple faith in who Christ is & what his death, burial, & resurrection has accomplished: complete reconciliation of the world to its Creator.(Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:19). It is offered to individuals, apart from a chosen nation & its laws. It is distinguished from the earth program in that it is not conditioned upon works or law-keeping in any way. (Eph. 2:8,9; Tit. 3:5). The doctrine for this new grace program is found only in Paul's writings (Romans-Philemon) & not in scriptures meant for Israel's earth program (all the rest).

When this grace age concludes (Rom. 11:25, 26), Israel's program will resume & salvation will again be conditioned upon faith + obedience (i.e., refusing the "mark", etc.). She will receive her kingdom & God will THEN write his laws on their hearts.

Today's free gift program is unacceptable to SDA's & others who mistakenly think that THEY are just a continuation of Israel & her earth program. This mistake may cost those that make it their salvation unless they accept it as FREE.

Hope to hear from you again,

Anonymous said...

As I said before SDA know & believe grace is free, and they know it also is conditional. I don't think you addressed the verses I used (which r just some) that show "conditions". Fullfilling a condition is not the same as earning. If I was to give to you a check for 1 million dollars free, However the only condition to you receiving it is that you go to the bank and cash it, would you now say "thats working for it, that now the million dollars isn't free"? What law was Paul quoting from when he said he had not known sin except the law said thou shalt not covet?
Or the fact that John was in the spirit on the LORDS DAY in revelation? In my last post do the verses I quoted suggest a condition? please answer these questions.

Deborah Collins said...


You're correct when you say that the free gift of salvation is conditional in that the sinner must accept it by believing that Christ paid the full penalty for their sin. At that moment, he is "sealed" (Eph. 1:13-14)"unto the day of redemption" (Eph. 4:30). At that point, all conditions cease & the believer is now justified by the "faith OF Christ" (not by works) (Gal. 2:16) & now livees "by the faith OF the Son of God." (Gal. 2:20) If we now live by Christ's faith (not by our own), how can we possibly lose God's love & approval? We can't.

Again, this is Body of Christ truth revealed by the mystery given to Paul. Israel did not have the "all spiritual blessings" package we enjoy "in Christ." So your list, which contains passages from Israel's "do this & I'll bless you" program, is not applicable to us today. The couple of Pauline scriptures listed are reminders of the need for passive acceptance of God's truth for today.

Do you believe 2 Cor. 5:19? Well, it declares that God is not imputing ANYONE'S trespasses unto them today! Sin is no longer the issue w/God - only whether men will believe that his Son took care of that for us! We need to stop concentrating on sin and concentrate on the Son. Do you trust him for everything, including forgiveness of all the sin you'll ever commit? Then you're saved.

In his grace,

P.S. In Israel's tribulation, the Sabbath law will return, but John was in the spirit on the Lord's Day (of Wrath)!

Anonymous said...

I thanku for your time. I do not think that you see the ramifications of what you are saying. Your'e "gospel" to me makes it ok to sin, and scripture has never condoned that. I can see why it is very popular
It seems to me you miss the clearest evidences that grace is conditional. Conditions of a gift do not make it less free, but rather put into place guidelines as to how to enjoy the gift in the best way so as not to abuse it!
I do believe 2 Cor. 5:19 for it is the beauty of grace. vs 21 speaks of a desire to be made righteousness of God. That cannot include condoneing known sin. Righteousness and sin do not go hand & hand. Remember it was sin that started this need for grace, Sin is by definition transgression of the law, if the law could have been done away with as you say, then really there was no need for Christ to die. His death solidifies the fact that it can't be done away with, or changed. Does it make sense to you that 1)man(Adam & Eve) sin (transgress Law) aginst God. 2) Gods answer is "Transgression of the law requires death. 3) I'll become death for they can keep on sining, and all they must do is believe that I died for them?"

Those lists of texts i gave showing coditions were not for israel, but are directives for us. I strongly disagree with your statement " Israel didn't have all the spiritual blessings that we have." Honestly nothing could be further from reality. Noah Found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD. Same Jesus, same Grace. It was always Free and always conditional! Good Day.

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, Anonymous,

I also thank you for your time in discussing your beliefs and your patience in considering mine. I agree with a statement made years ago that if "you're not accused of giving people a license to sin, you're not preaching the gospel."

Your insistence on grace not completely covering sin makes me wonder if you yourself are sinless. Of course not! So you must have a system for obtaining God's forgiveness when you sin, but how do you ever know if you were sorry enough, committed to change enough, or changed your ways enough to merit God's forgiveness? Paul says we have God's forgiveness thru Christ already (Eph. 1:7; 4:32; Col. 2:13) so isn't asking him to forgive you again perhaps insulting to him?

Grace teaches us, as Titus 2:11-12 says, to deny ungodliness & worldly lusts, that we should live soberly, and godly, in this present world. Two-thirds of Paul's writings deal with how we should live now that we're saved. But nowhere does he ever write that our salvation is conditioned upon our doing a good job of it!

Trying to assure your salvation by your own efforts denies God the glory that is rightfully his for him having done it ALL.

Good day to you as well & may you find peace with God through the Lord Jesus Christ.


Anonymous said...

Good discussion. One difference i have noticed in our Gospels is probably in the deffinition of what sin is. SDA believe that sin is a choice, "for him that knoweth to do good and do it not, to him it is sin." I am not without sin, however as I get to know Jesus more I do not choose to sin! However because I still have a sinful nature, sometimes I fall into temptation. The Book of 1John explains this very well. As for Paul chapter 6 is VERY clear that if we are dead to sin how can we continue to sin? Too many people read that we are not under the law but under grace as saying we are not under the "obligation" of the law. That is such a contridiction when pauls says shall i sin, God forbid. The proper view of not under the law but under sin is: we are not under the "comdemnation" of the law, and why because I am keeping it as best I can with Christs help & grace! Im not working for it.

Have a good day:)

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, again,

Your explanation of where you stand in regard to the "law" and sin is much more hopeful this time. It is certainly true that Paul makes clear that sin has no place any longer in the life of a believer. We should cooperate fully with the Holy Spirit indwelling us who gives us power over sin, not so we can "stay saved," but to empower us to live for Christ as we ought. He also restates 9 of the 10 commandments (notice which one's missing?) & states that we should put on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to live accordingly. (Rom. 13:9) We don't keep them in our flesh but by allowing Christ to live in us.

One question, though. Do you believe that if you fall into gross sin without repentance or if you fall into unbelief after placing faith in Christ that you can lose the salvation you once had? Or, let's say you refuse or neglect to worship on Sabbath - are you still saved?

I agree that our discussion is a fruitful one!


Deborah said...


One other thing that I keep forgetting to mention. You state a couple of times that "Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." The term, "grace," simply means "unmerited favor." God wanted to destroy wicked mankind and start over, and at the time, Noah was the only candidate he could possibly approve of, although I bet Noah still had lots of sin baggage. (Look how one of the first things he did when he got off the ark was to get drunk: Gen. 9:21.) But God showed grace to Noah & his family by saving them from the flood & allowing them to repopulate the planet. Notice it didn't say, "God found grace in Noah," but "Noah found grace" in God! In order to be one of those who would be resurrected to go into the promised kingdom on earth, Noah was required to show his faith by his works just like all of God's earthly people. The Body of Christ today is the only exception to that rule, praise God!


Anonymous said...

I do agree. your'e quote "Noah was required"... would you say that is fulfilling a condition? This has been a good exchange! I thank you, and God Bless!

Deborah Collins said...


Yes, Noah's ultimate salvation was conditional upon him showing his faith by his obedience to God; but this is my whole point. Israel's kingdom gospel did entail a performance-based acceptance system with God, while our grace gospel does not. Paul is the special messenger God chose to reveal this change of dispensations to the world.

BTW, did you see the response I posted to your previous comment? I'd be interested in your answers to my questions.


Greg said...

Just to add to the discussion, it is important to recognize that Christ died for all of man's sin and not just some sins (see a previous article from this blog, "Do we need forgiveness on the installment plan?"). This means that whether we knowingly or unknowingly sin; and no matter when the sin takes place, it is all taken care of at the cross. This is the present Gospel of the Grace of God first delivered and preached by Paul (I Corinthians 15:3,4). To remedy our sinful nature, there is nothing we can do but believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again on the third day. This requires no effort as it is a decision in faith that comes from the heart. Regarding the moral principles of the Word of God and the Ten Commandments, these are still important to believers today. But the way we keep the Ten Commandments is to exercise Godly love to one another. Paul bottom-lines this simplicity of living under grace, just live according to love and you are fulfilling the law at the same time (Romans 13:9,10). Those of us who have placed our faith in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection choose to live righteously not because of a fear of hell but out of a desire for rewards in our sealed future in heaven (I Corinthians 3:12-15). God bless everyone. I look forward to the day when all of us believers (those still on earth and those who have passed on) will be united to spend eternity with Christ in heaven.

Deborah Collins said...

Greg, thank you so much for putting that so well and making is so simple that a child could understand it! It should make the heart of anyone who reads those words sing. Why would anyone want to argue with something so wonderful as what God has for us in Christ? As the old saying goes, "Now that's an offer I can't refuse!"

Many thanks for weighing in on the discussion,

Anonymous said...

Paul wrote extensively that we are not saved by the works of the law. you asked if i believe that we can loose our salvation, the answer is quite clear-yes! In galatians Paul does speak of falling from grace. also I would search out the bible on the term backsliding. If we fail to fullfill the "conditions" of salvation (thru Him) and engage in willfull sin then yes we have fallen from grace. I understand that is forien to most people, but the bible is very clear. Gal. 5:18 states that if we are led by the spirit we are not "under the law", in other words being led by God we will not choose sin, therefore we are not under the condemnation of the law, it can't convict us! the opposite would be sinning brings condemnation! Gal.3:6 is clear-abiding in Christ sins not!
I agree with an earlier statement. Having Christ in us also puts the law of God in us. His law should be written in our hearts! Which was Gods plan all along. Jer 31:33. Anyone including SDA that has to "check off" like some list as to what commandments he needs to keep "so to speak" has missed the point of obedience to Gods law. As to your comment that the Sabbath commandment is missing from the NT. Please read Hebrews 4, as well as any scripture (Rev) that makes a call to worship God as creator! This is what the Sabbath really is. As you are aware marriage was established at creation, and so was the Sabbath! It was not some law given to Israel or just for the Jews. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man. When was Sabbath made? at creation, before sin, before any need of Grace!

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, Anonymous,

Now you have me worried about you again! If you can reach a point where you no longer deserve the salvation that you never deserved in the first place, then you are trusting in your own efforts and not in Christ. You have, as Paul writes in Galatians, "fallen from grace." That is, IF you ever did place your faith in Christ alone w/o reserving some of the effort for yourself at the outset, in which case, you still need to get saved. "Fallen from grace" does not mean losing salvation but simply that a believer is not operating under the grace system and needs to be restored to it. The Holy Spirit has sealed that believer unto the day of redemption so there's no chance of losing what God has promised to him for having believed in Christ.

The fact that Jer. 31:31 is NOT true for believers today, because most believers do not have the law of God written in their hearts, with no need to teach their neighbor, etc., indicates that this promise of God is not for US today or it would have come true, as God cannot lie. This is for Israel under their new covenant in their kingdom.

You cite Hebrews 4 & the book of the Revelation as proof that the Sabbath commandment is in effect today, but Hebrews & Revelation are written to the faithful remnant during the future tribulation of God's chosen people!
Only Paul's letters are for and to us in the age of grace. The Sabbath law was instituted when God gave Israel his commandments, not in Genesis where it simply says that God rested from his work. There was no "do this & live" law regarding Sabbath keeping until Exodus. And today there is no "do this & live" law for us at all: now it's "believe this & live w/o doing anything."

I'm glad you agree that yielding to the Holy Spirit will naturally fulfill the law (even Sabbath as we now eternally rest from our works "in Christ"!), but when you make salvation conditional upon obeying it, you nullify that idea in your own relationship with God.

"Backsliding" is a term found only in Israel's scriptures. As for "walking in the Spirit," that describes even the humblest saved believer every moment of every day b/c now God sees him walking in Christ, and no more in his flesh, as he is "in Christ."

Believe and be saved eternally,

Anonymous said...

Sometimes I think we concentrate too much on the trees and miss the forest (the big picture so to speak) There is NO way that the standards of judgement r going to be different for us than Israel. I can not even conceive the idea that those before Christ are judged by something other then them accepting the grace that is for us. Nothing changed when Christ died other then the ceremonial laws (that pointed to Christ's death) were nailed to the cross. Please be aware how unjust it is to think that those before Christ are judged according to the law, but its different for us.
I can find all Ten Commandments in Genesis. "BEFORE" they appeared in Written form for Israel. Please Think about it. Paul says where there is no LAW there is no sin. How could ADAM & Eve sin if the Law didn't exist? What law did Abraham keep in Gen 26:5? BEFORE ISRAEL! Rev. 13:6 states that the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world! No different for them then us! They looked forward to Christ, we look back, thats all!
I also can not conceive the idea that a person who is "saved" can go out and rob a bank, or cheat on his wife and still be in a saved condition! Jesus came to save us from our sins not in them. Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments! Its simple. I do believe that your Gospel is of the same spirit that fell Adam & Eve. Saying its ok to sin!

Deborah Collins said...

If sinning after salvation renders you out of a "saved condition," then what do you have to do to become re-saved? You must have blown it at least once already, haven't you?

If our salvation requirements aren't different from Israel, what does it mean in Rom. 11:11 where Paul says that through Israel's "fall salvation has come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." In what way is Israel supposed to be jealous of our salvation if it isn't that we are saved apart from the law that they were commanded to keep?(Rom. 3:28).

Where in Genesis does God command men to keep the Sabbath? I'd be interested to know. Also, Adam & Eve did have a law: don't eat from that tree! Since the beginning of God's earthly program, he has required men's faithful obedience to him. We today have one law: "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith." (Rom. 3:30) Faith alone w/o the deeds of the law or works of righteousness. Why would Paul even make this distinction if it wasn't DIFFERENT than what had been before it? Of course Israel had gone about to establish her own righteousness w/o any underlying faith in God, so they were doubly cursed.

Israel did not look forward to the cross but was simply to obey in faith what God told them in their day. Even the prophets did not understand that Christ would die for sin. Not even his disciples understood that after 3 years! (See Luke 18:34).

If you think you must "seal the deal" w/your own obedience, you have not fully trusted Christ.


Anonymous said...

Romans 11 is speaking of Israel's stubborness. although Israel lost its favor with God because it rejected the salvation of Jesus, hopefully by seeing the gospel being taken to Gentiles, it would provoke them to jeleousy (envy) and they may accept Christ. vs.12: had isreal accepted jesus the riches of that salvation would have been greater. Note Israel isnt jeleous because this "gospel" is "better" than what they were offered. but rather They rejected it!
Keep in mind Peter warned that Paul's writing can be difficult to understand.
I think that there is confusion between us now. please do not confuse satisfying a "condition" as the same as "working" for salvation.
We never lose Gods Love, the question isn't love, I never said that. We can lose His grace!

Paul Had to make the distinction because too many people for far too long had made a connection that obedience to the law meant salvation! Jesus was up against that too! I don't believe that salvation comes thru obedience of Gods law! Salvation comes by GRACE! We are saved by Grace alone! Please note: Romans 5:10- We are saved by HIS LIFE. Heres a ? are we saved by 2 different things or are grace and His life the same?
Now I think that we really are getting to the heart of the matter! Once I give my heart to God I am Justified! No merit on my part, I come to Him AS I AM! At that moment I receive His Grace. For SDA that is not the end of the story. Now comes the part of sanctification. That being righteousness that Paul calls for. Really its to be like Christ. This is what it means to be saved by HIS LIFE> saved by grace and saved by His life are the same!!!! Clearly they are not two different things. Now my walk includes being like Christ because now I have Christ's righteousness, what is known as that "mystery" Col 1:26-27, Christ in me! As long as I walk in the spirit of God I do not fall under the law or "comdemnation of the law" because I have surrendered my will & the spirit will NOT lead me to sin.
Now I am sure I know what you are thinking, DO I Sin? Unfortunetely I do fall into temptation, and even into ignorance of sining! Just like David I pray for a clean heart, and for forgiveness. For SDA sanctification upholds justification. We can NOT have one without the other! The minute in my life that I decide to reject God's righteousness I accept my will or my way I fall from GRACE!
Its refusing Gods righteousness that causes me to fall out of grace. Because ultimetly that leads to sin! see its not Thru the law at all! this is why ADAM & EVE fell. Not because they ate some fruit! or Not because I broke a commandment! By the law is the knowelege of sin. That is the laws function, to define sin.

Romans ch 1 thru 5 is primarily speaking of justification only. many people stop there and do not go on and read about Gods imparted righteousness. See how paul has to constantly drive home that to be justified is free? this is what he was constantly up against.
ALL CEREMONIAL LAWS looked FORWARD TO CHRIST! Its called TYPOLOGY Some got it some didn't. Clearly Isaiah did! By the time Christ came most didn't..
All ten commandments can be found including SABBATH before sinai! Its there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Deborah Collins said...

You say, "Please do not confuse satisfying a condition as the same as working for salvation." I propose that these ARE the same; they both require effort on the part of the believer, therefore nullifying the gift concept of salvation.

The way it looks from here is that you've been sold a bill of goods by the church you chose as they do not seem to be teaching who we become in Christ when we truly trust him and what he did: imputed righteousness of God to us in Christ (2Cor5:21); complete justification (declared not guilty for our sins) (Rom3:26); & complete positional sanctification (as opposed to our practical sanctification which has no bearing on our eternal salvation) (1Cor1:30). There's no way a believer's sin can cause these truths to fail. If you think they can, YOU ARE NOT TRUSTING CHRIST, and you do then have something to fear.

Putting ultimate salvation back on the believer himself instead of leaving it where it is: on Christ & his faithfulness, is what makes a cult instead of a church. The SDA "church" is very much like the RCC! Until you come out of the darkness, you won't see the light of grace truth.

I sincerely hope you will come to see that Christ is our all in all & there's nothing you can add to what he's done.

Note: Isaiah didn't necessarily know what he was writing about but was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Also, I asked where in Genesis the command to keep Sabbath is given.

Because of his grace,

Anonymous said...

Well I guess we are at an impass. I would like to leave you with this:
if I was to give you a gift of a check lets say for a $1000. Its free to you however I tell you that the one condition is that you must take it to the bank and cash it. Would you at that point think that the act of taking it to the bann is earning it?

I do believe in 1Cor 1:30. Sanctification is Christ in us, and being led by the Spirit will NOT lead me to break His commandments.

Some other conditions would be to believe, have faith, Obey, prayer. It is all conditions. fullfilling conditions doesnt make the gift less free, it makes it more abundant!
if obediance isnt important, why all the numerous calls in the NT to keep God's commandments?
I think what you believe contradicts other parts of bible. seems to be no harmony. Paul says should we sin? God Forbid! and you seem to add "but don't worry if you do the law doesnt matter anymore!" Jesus says keeping commandments is an act of love.
As far as the Sabbath- how do you explain John being in the Spirit on the LORDS DAY in Rev?

Deborah Collins said...

We're still at square one, Anonymous. You've already made the free check analogy, and yes, taking it to the bank would be a condition...but symbolically, I guess, God gives us our gift in CASH b/c we can receive it lying prostrate in a puddle in a dark alley. We don't have to get up & do anything to receive it or keep it...EVER, except to passively believe it's ours.

As for John being in the Spirit on the "Lord's Day," I've explained that this is a term for "Lord's Day of Wrath" or the tribulation, which is obvious from the context of Revelation! I've heard Sunday-Sabbath Christians say he was in the Spirit on Sunday! That's just as wrong.

In retrospect, the error of a church keeping the Sabbath is small potatoes compared to their preaching "another Jesus," one that cannot save w/o plenty of help from the "believer." The believer & Christ are NOT partners -- Jesus Christ DID IT ALL! What glory would God receive from sacrificing his Son for us if we usurp part of it by insisting we fulfilled your imaginary conditions?

Yes, I do see the Bible as contradictory, in that Paul is preaching a brand-new message of pure grace that is nothing like Peter's gospel of "have faith but also be faithful" (Acts10:35), with, yes, conditions. Israel's gospel has been set aside temporarily while God saves us by his grace alone for believing that his Son died and rose again. (1Cor15:1-4). If you want salvation, you need to give up your faith in Israel's gospel and believe Paul's.

It's your only hope,

Anonymous said...

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say? Shall we continue to sin, that grace may abound? GOD FORBID!

Romans 6:12 Let not sin reign in your mortal body vs13 neither yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin.

Romans 6:15 Shall we sin because we are not under the law, but under grace? GOD FORBID.

Romans 7:12 (after paul became convicted of sin) Wherefore the law is holy, good and just.

Romans 8:4 that the righteousness of the law be fulfilled IN US BECAUSE WE WALK NOT OF THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

Romans 8:13 if you live after the flesh YE SHALL DIE!

Paul is saying what everyone else has said about being born again and now the law of God is written in our hearts! Walking after the spirit will not lead us to sin!
Please remember Paul is preaching to new GENTILE converts who have been shown thru the Jews that all these deeds of the law (this outward show) is what saves. We know for a fact that the Jews so missed the mark of salvation because they "worked" for it thru the law.(the same thing you think I do) This is why the first 5 chapters of Romans Paul is driving home the fact that grace is free. However it doesn't remove the law of God, He's putting it in its proper place, Romans 7:7- Quoting from the 10 Commandments "I had not known sin except the law said THOU SHALT NOT COVET!"
IF you can reconcile that the the 10 commandments are still binding and see them in its proper place the Gospels of all the writers would be in harmony (the way they should be) You seem to separate them as being different and it all hinges on Paul! I understand that, Even Peter understood it, Paul is very deep and philisophical and can be hard to understand.
As a SDA I believe that Jesus came to save us from our sins and not in them! I have noticed NOTHING you have said that comes from the bible and flat out says the commandments of God are done away with and its ok to sin. The only way to justify it is to use Paul and then INTERJECT what he means. Let the bible interpret Paul, Hes not saying anything contrary to anyother writer.

How can a man who has accepted this free gift of Jesus turn right around and cheat on his wife and still be justified? He can't. Born again means a new creature! He will not walk after the flesh, and surely walking after the spirit of God would NOT lead him to sin!

The fact that I have free will and the fact that Jesus will not force this free gift on anyone, I MUST cooporate with God!!!!!! Granted I thank God it is minimal. My part is to believe!, my part is to accept! to yield my self to Him. It is not me who keeps the commandments, I can't, But it is Christ in me!!!!!Phillipiabs 2:12-Here is an imperitive: beloved as ye have always OBEYED-WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING. vs 13 For it is God IN YOU both to will and to do His good pleasure! In other words (paraphrase) Work the salvation God has given you into your life, with a sense of awe and gratitude! Sounds like to me I have a part! sounds like im cooporating!
If you don't add to what ive said, then it will be clear. KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD ARE A RESULT OF BEING SAVED NOT A MEANS TO IT!!!!!!
I would think that would sound appealing to you. That there is a group of believers that threw Christ want to uphold Gods law. I mean look at the last six alone, This would be a blessing to society if we all recognized that keeping Gods law would put us in harmony with each other. and the first 4 in harmony with God.

Deborah Collins said...

Of course, Paul tells believers not to sin! But he never says that our salvation depends on it. As for having the liberty to do whatever we want (even, gasp, sin, altho it's not "expedient"), Paul writes TWICE in 1 Cor: "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient; all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." 1 Cor6:12. "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient; all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not." All things is ALL THINGS. "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free." Gal5:1.

As for your saying that "the 10 commandments are still binding," and your insistence that YOU must walk in the Spirit, I'd say with Paul, "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." Gal5:18. One cancels out the other.

Here's the clincher. When you believe the gospel, you're indwelt by the Holy Spirit, yes? Well, then you will walk in the Spirit simply because of that fact. "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you." Rom.8:9. So, believers don't choose to walk in the Spirit...they already do walk in the Spirit! Walking in the flesh is something ONLY unbelievers (natural men) can even do!

Paul tells us to "work out your own salvation," etc. It is our own salvation; we already have it & can't lose it. It's ours thru believing.

Paul had many former Jews in his churches & they needed to understand that they were not under the Law of Moses anymore. Gentiles, on the other hand, WERE NEVER UNDER THE LAW AT ALL! God never, ever gave the law to the Gentiles. Israel proved they couldn't keep it & needed the only righteousness that mattered: God's! They will have to admit this before they can get their kingdom in the future. But we bypass all that repentance and are simply offered the gift of God's righteousness through Christ for believing. Keeping the law, not sinning, & trying to gain God's approval SIMPLY DO NOT EXIST FOR US TODAY. Trying to put even one of your own fingerprints on your salvation nullifies grace. You're forgiven for doing it after you're saved, but if you're not saved by Christ alone first, that offer is not available.

Please stop trying & start TRUSTING!

Anonymous said...

Looks like we are at an impass. I could not have put it any clearer in my last post.

Quite honestly youre last post proves my point. Now you have made paul contradict himself. He would not constantly make a call to not sin, or be sanctified and then turn around and say all sin is lawfull to me. He must be saying something else! and careful study would show he is!
It is not against "the law" to eat, however it is not expedient (profitable) to eat like a pig! Same with sex. AGAIN ANOTHER CALL OF PAUL IN VS.15 NOT TO SIN!!!!!!!

Like I said you use a few verses of paul and interject his meaning. "UNDER THE LAW" does NOT mean under the OBLIGATION of the law. Again interjection! Paul would NOT say don't sin and then turn around and say its ok to sin we are not under the obligation of the law. I am not under the CONDEMNATION of the law because I do not walk after the flesh!!!!!!! I surrender my will to God, NOW I walk after the spirit. Because the spirit will not lead me to sin I am obedient to His law! Now the law can't convict me, I am not under the penalty of the law! I HAVE FREE WILL! I at anytime can CHOOSE not to walk after the Spirit and to walk after the flesh!
It is crazy to think that "Im in like Flynn" and can do whatever my flesh inclines me to do!

Walking in the Spirit of God is a choice!!!! You are a christian-tell me if you CHOOSE to steal from your grocery store are you walking in the spirit? Am I walking in the Spirit if I lie to my wife, steal from my neighbor, Kill my boss???? There is a warning for these kind of Christians who have this form of Godliness: "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knoweledge of the truth" 2 Tim.3

The ONLY law the Gentiles were not given was the handwritten law of moses. The typology we talked about. the law Israel kept that forshadowed Christ coming. Christ Fullfilled it! Yes you are right some Jews DID accept Pauls message, but they were a constant pain to Paul because they wanted to insist on keeping the mosaic laws! circumsision, the sabbath holidays and feast days, this was the battle Paul had.

A careful study in Genesis would show ALL ten Commandment listed before siniai!!!!!!By the time Siniai came the law had been so forgotten it needed to be written for them! Anyone who tries to tell you the 10 commandments first appeared at siniai is preaching a false Gospel!

Looks like now we are going round and round. You have been a gracious host, thank you for a good discussion. I wish you well!

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, readers,

If you've been following this discussion, perhaps you can see that Anonymous is operating under a misconception of how God sees the believer in Christ. This is because he is adding elements to his belief system from Israel's now set aside performance system with God. Thanks to God's awesome provision in Christ of our complete justification from the law and sin, God no longer sees us in our sins, but in Christ.

Of course, that's not to give the believer a "license to sin." God would not have given Paul all that doctrine for godly living if it was, but our salvation is not, as Israel's was, an "if, then" proposition.

Religion feeds man's pride nature with his desire to somehow merit in himself God's favor. This was proved impossible by Israel, and is folly for anyone today. God's favor has only been won by one "man," the Lord Jesus Christ, and only by having his righteousness credited to our account can we ever hope to find peace with God.

I sincerely hope that Anonymous will come to realize that before it's too late for him.


keith Gonzales said...

I read the comments and both of them need to study the bible in more detail .
1: The Sabbath in Colossians 2:16 is the 7th day Sabbath and modern translations
such as the NIV and NASB translate it as singular .

2:Commandments in both the Old and New Testaments in context to more than the ten :
Joshua 8:8 , 1 Samuel 15:3 ,13-14 , 18-19 .
1 Cor 14:34-37 . John 14:15 , 23 .
The words of Christ are his commandments , the writing of the Apostles , ditto .
To return to what God has abolished is to fall from grace and is being rebellious : Galatians 4:24-30 , 5:1-4 .

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, Keith, and many thanks for upholding and defending the wonderful fact of God's grace toward us through what his Son Jesus Christ has accomplished for us by his death, burial, and resurrection. We need to realize that the only fingerprints on our salvation belong to God and none of our own are necessary to keep it, amen?

Enjoying our all-spiritual blessings with you,