Here I'm going to defer to Pastor Dennis Kiszonas of Grace for Today Ministries who wrote an article on the subject for the Berean Bible Society's Searchlight Magazine a few years back. There's simply no way that I can improve on his logical and simple explanation regarding this divisive subject. Here's the link:
Read, learn, and enjoy!
27 comments:
Hm, how unfortunate your ignorance is. Tell me, have you ever been outside your state? Your own backyard? How about your own country? As one who had spent 5 years on the mission fields of South Africa, Rwanda, and Swaziland, 3 years building orphanages with church teams in India, and 4 years in village evangalism in the Himalayas of Nepal, (including Human Trafficking awarness) I seriosly doubt you or this article have any idea of what you're talking about. I have held babies dying of HIV AIDS, I have lead raids on brothels in India rescuing children from the sex trade, I have seen the killing fields in Rwanda and worked with churches in the areas where thousands died, and I have seen churches double and triple dispite growing theats from Hindu extremists in India, and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the Gifts of the Spirit are very much alive and working in the churches and minestries and Christians today, and if you want to keep your eyes closed, that your own folly. I personally see visions, I speak in tongues, (although there should always be someone to translate, so isn't that a message to you, that tongues are translated?) and I have witnessed many healings. (And the "authenticated" King James Version? Do you even know anything about King James? He demanded that everyone in England worship God the way he does, and he imprisioned people who disagreed with him. So are you actually telling me that the King James version is the only "true" version of the Bible? Do you also believe that the pipe organ is the only "true" instrument for worship?) So why don't you get some sense into your head, and get out into the world and educate yourself. God needs you to build his church, not destroy it.
Anonymous, You're certainly entitled to your opinion and I'll defend your right to express it in an open forum like this. To your objections to the idea that the sign gifts have ceased during this age of grace when we have the completed word of God, I would respond that it's not going to matter a great deal in the larger scheme of things, but your eternal salvation certainly will, at least to you! I would then ask, Have you fully trusted the Lord Jesus Christ, that he has done everything necessary to save you from hell? If so, you're saved and sealed and subsequent errors in doctrine on my part or yours won't keep us from his presence in glory! Amen?
Deborah
No, it is true that errors in doctrines will not keep me or you from the salvation of God through Jesus Christ, but what I'm getting at is that errors in your doctrine confuse people, drive people away from Christianity, and pull apart the church. Now, you say Spiritual Gifts are dead, so let's say a church in a village in central Africa get people telling them that they should not be speaking in tongues, or healing people, and that all these manifestations of the Holy Spirit are NOT the Holy Spirit. Who are they going to trust now, for they have certainly can't trust both you and telling them that these things are wrong AND the Spirit leading them in a land where life and being a Believer is ten times harder. Teh rest of the world is not like America, is you stepped out you would know that. How do the churches who are not allowed to have Bibles able to grow? You have never been in a place where you will have your hand chopped off because of the Bible you hold, have you. The Holy Spirit especially thrives in these situations, truth me, I've been there. It doesn't matter if you don't personally beleive or have any of the Gifts of the Spirit, it is still very wrong to say that they are NOT from the Holy Spirit, because in all reality, how would you know? How would you even begin to judge or tackle this issue without years being out where the saftey and comforts of the West do not exist, where it's just you and your Christ. That is truly where you grow in Christ. It is apparent that the author of this article also has no idea of what he's talking about, because to assume that the Bible says that all speaking in tongues or all propesying has stopped and is not the Holy Spirit is to assume that he knows better than the actual Holy Spirit working this way in the lives Christians around the world. In the end, when we stand before Christ, it will not matter how many times you have read your Bible or what specific denominational doctrines you have, what will matter is how well you have accomplished Christ's number one commission: To know Him and make Him known. So, in summary, does this article and does this blog post really aspire to make Him known? Do not get me wrong, I have read many of your blogs have done my research, but for the most part, this blog is about tearing apart doctrines and promoting confusion than it is about making Him known. Are you sure that's what you want to accomplish? Once again, God wants you to build his church, not destroy it.
Hi, Anonymous,
I appreciate your fervency but must point out that oftentimes it's members of cults like Catholicism and Oneness Pentecostalism that exhibit these manifestations. Where do their "gifts" come from? If their manifestations come from the evil one, and I contend that they do, how do you know for sure that these others aren't? Most of the time, when these "gifts" are present, you will find gross doctrinal errors of other kinds present, such as works or rituals required for salvation or a false view of God. I maintain that the gifts obviously ceased by the end of Paul's ministry as evidenced by the fact that he does not mention them in his pastoral letters to Timothy and Titus. The written word is my final authority, not experience and emotion. Those who practice these things need truth, not coddling.
Deborah
I'm afraid that you need to hear the truth. You speak from your own shut-up views, but as I have said before, the world of Christianity, Christian missions, and the Holy Spirit are bigger than your small mind can comprehend. It's sad that you limit God to what you like and dislike. You're trying to him in a box Deborah, but you can't put God inside a box. Do you actually believe in the Holy Spirit? It sounds as if you don't, as if everything outside your small worldview is "the Devil." That's what makes me most angry about religion, if youdon't like something it's "from the devil." Then you might as well call me "the devil" because I'm a missionary in India at present, which wouldn't fit into your worldview now would it? Hm, yes of course, what does God care about your relationship with him and the Holy Ghost? All he cares about is your Biblical arrogance isn't it? Did you also know that Christianity isn't a religion? God does not desire religion from you, he desires a relationship. He gave us the Bible to show us how to have a relationship with him, but people like you hold up the Bible higher than God himself. To compliment your arrogence and your religious comfusion, you might as well convert to Hinduism, you'll get a lot closer to finding the true devil. If you don't belive that the gifts of the spirit exist anymore, than just what do you belive the Holy pirit does now? Sit next to Buddha? Hm, because the gifts aren't mentioned in a few letters you think they don't exist, that's a funny one, haven't heard that one before, must be a "New Age" philosophy, eh Deborah? A long time ago I stoped growing taller, does that mean that I am no longer growing? Atmy last doctors apointment nothing about my respratory was mentioned, does that mean I have stopped breathing? So you sit at your computer deciding what is God and the Holy Spirit and what isn't for the rest of the world? Now here's a real challenge for you, come over to India and find out what the Holy Spirit and Christianity really means. But then again, everything that challenges your arrogent wourldview you immedialty shut out right? One more thing, what is your "truth" to people who "practise?" (oh and by the way, no one "practises" anything, it is the Holy Spirit who chooses to "practise") What would you Deborah tell the underground church in Pakistan? What would you tell the church in Bidholi vilage in India who have to hide the few Bibles they have so their homes wont be burned down? Would you have the guts to tell them that the Holy Spirit isn't real as you say? Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Claiming that gifts of the Spirit is dead or "the devil" is saying the Holy Spirit no longer exists. As you see, you have very poor knowledge in ths subject, so I sugest you start expirencing the true living God and stop promoting your own "cult."
I would tell anyone - I don't care who they are or where they are - to rightly divide the word of truth and recognize that only Paul's epistles apply to us today. Paul said the sign gifts would cease in 1 Cor. 13:8 and nothing in his later epistles tells us different. We need nothing but the inspired, preserved, infallible word of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit to help our understanding of it.
I will continue to pray that you and those to whom you minister come to a knowledge of the truth according to God's word, rightly divided according to prophecy of time past and ages to come, and the mystery through Paul today.
Deborah
You must be Mormon. Single? No man woud marry your arrogance. I will pray for you that God opens your eyes and shows you what real truth is, and that he will show you how he wants to make Him known, not destroy his church, his Bride. Your Bible is your god, not the one True God or Jesus. Tell me how that goes for you, drownding much? Or are you too protected by the walls you build up against God and Truth. Religion will not save you, reading the Bible and making false assumptions will not save you, only a relationship wth Him will. I pray that you find this and come to know Him. The Bible IS devine world, but worshiping it will no save you. As I said, you might as well put your Bible next to Krishna or which ever Hindu god you prefer, because in your "religion" you're just as lost. So you'll "tell anyone?" Than come over and do it, put your money where your mouth is. Once you leave your saftey behind then you will really come to know Him. Know Him and make Him known, so far you accompish none of that. Stop hinding begind your computer and comfortable chair and come see how God and the Holy Spirit works. Would you even have the guts to know Truth?
So you think that only what Paul says applies to us today? Imust say I have never hear that one before either. Must be another "New Age" philosophy, eh Deborah? Than worship Paul if that's what you believe. What about what God or the Holy Spirit says to us today? Is Paul suddenly above God? I understand that you once believed that Mary was above God. All you've done is replaced Mary with Paul. Good luck with that.
Hi, Anonymous,
"...for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." (Psalm 138:2). That verse is proof that God holds his word extremely high and so should we. God is virtually unknowable except through his word, especially how he feels about man and what his plans are for man. The Bible is the point of contact at which we can meet God! Only by an intelligent understanding of God's words to us can we know what his relationship with us is right now; and his word tells us that God is silent right now while his Son's body on earth acts as his witness through preaching, and not through signs and wonders. (1 Cor. 1:21; Rom. 10:15).
We have God's written word, the Holy Spirit, and each other. What more do we need?
Deborah
Are you going to keep erasing my comment like an arrogent bone head, or are you going to let your readers hear some truth for a change?
I could do this all day, but fankly I have better things to do than to argue with a cult leader. I show you truth and you act like a stubborn child. I know a lost cause when I see one, but you're still going to have to stop your Paul worshiping cult blog to get rid of me.
Now stop hiding behind your computer and respond to my challenge. If you think you have all the right answers, and you go so far as promoting them in your cult, then back them up!
I'll be back later when you've pulled the stick out of your bum and grown a back bone.
Thank You Anonymous
I too am a missionary and and am sometimes deeply grieved by attitudes I encounter.
I came across this blog chasing a Gayle Erwin search on Google.
It seems to me that Deborah, your Jesus is now Paul, doctrine is your God and the scriptures are your Holy Spirit. I hope you will take Anonymous up on the offer to visit the mission field. You will be utterly changed and inspired to follow Jesus deeper and more closely than ever.
The mission field may not change your doctrine but you will be incredibly challenged by seeing God at work truly transforming darkness by His marvelous light.
Saved by Jesus, not Paul or Peter
dai
Thank you mudcup.
It's encuraging to find someone reading this blog who really understands the diference between doctrine and relationship. This isn't the first time I have encountered people in the West not knowing anything about their Jesus because they never let themselves be challenged or grow in their Jesus. Deborah likes to be the dominant person in her discussions, she would rather be right than be challenged, so she has been deleting my last discussion post so she wont have to answer, even more proof why she can't be challenged because her doctrine simply cannot stand up to the power of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit that the whole world sees each day, not just the West.
I do think that Paul says some great things in his Gospels, so does Peter, in fact, pretty much all the devinely instpired writers of the Bible were inspired to wrie their part of the Bible for a reason, not just Paul. Jesus is and always will be my Saviour, not Paul.
Deborah, because I know you`re thinking of deleting this too, just think for a moment. What if you did let the Holy Spirit into you life, and saw how God works his Light of the World into the world. What would you have to loose. Maybe you`re not really saved by Paul. If you really love Jesus, wouldn`t you want to know that your salvation has nothing to do with Paul. You don`t have to go throught Paul to have your salvation is Jesus. I already mentioned that this is no different from believing that you have to go through the virgin Mary to find your salvation.
Because Jesus alone, not Paul or Mary, saves.
Anonymous and Mudcup:
Ignorance bolstered with pride.
Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, he was given the Revelation of the Mystery by the RISEN LORD JESUS CHRIST for this Dispensation of Grace we are currently living in.
Do you know where the Gospel of your salvation is in the Bible???
I surely hope for your sake that you do, and that you believe it, otherwise you can speak in tongues, heal, etc, etc - but you'll still be on your way to hell.
Anonymous
Jesus Christ is my Gospel of salvation, not this Paulism you eat up. I believe that Jesus Christ bled and died on the cross for me, but you however believe that Paul bled and died on the cross for you.
Now please do tell me, on the day of Judgment, do you actually believe that it will be your fath in Paul that saves you, or your faith in Jesus.
I speak in tognues because of my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in me. And you believe that Paul has become a second Messiah. There can only be one Messiah and His name is Jesus Christ, not the Apostle Paul.
So I hope you take a good hard long look into who actually bled and died on the cross for you and you come to know Him. I surely hope for your sake that you do, and that you believe it, otherwise you can follow Paulism, worship Paul above the real Messiah, etc, etc - but you'll still be on your way to hell, and on the day of judgment it will be you who He says "I don't know you."
We live in Grace, but does Paul give out that Grace? Only a cult can belive so.
To Mudcup and the original Anonymous, I'd like to point out that perhaps your focus should be on WHY this article infuriates you so much. Surely my tiny blog, unseen by the vast majority of browsers, is not going to influence enough of them to do any harm to the ministries of which you are so protective! If you are convinced in your own minds that the supernatural gifts are still in force, go for it! I'm not stopping you. I'm simply exercising my right to express the view of Mid Acts Dispensationalism on the matter, with Scripture backing it up. It might be a worthwhile and enlightening pursuit for you to look inside of yourself for the real reason you are so driven to attack those fellow believers in Christ who believe differently than you do about a non-essential of the faith.
Deborah
Anonymous, Deborah must have hit a nerve with you. Why not use some of your "gifts" to speak to Deborah in a Christ like manner. So if someone isn't in the "mission field" then they can't know anything? I hate to tell you but we have the completed word of God and IT is the final authority, not you. Why would anyone want to hear anything you had to say coming on this blog spewing your hatred and insulting remarks?
I respect Deborah, but I do not respect her arrogance. And no, Deborah did not hit a nerve with me, she just kept deleting my posts because she cannot be challenged.
Deborah is a Pharisee. Now Jesus loved the Pharisees just the same as he loves you and me, but did he use nice buttering-up to call out the Pharisee's arrogance and falsehood? No. I love Deborah as a Sister in Christ, but I will continue to call out her arrogance and falsehood of her cult.
Deborah knows a lot, but she is also misguided in a lot because of her false doctrine's interpretation of the living word of God.
So, if you have decided to wise-up, here's my earlier post that you so disliked. (Hm, I wonder why, maybe it's because it exposes the true falsehood of your "sound" doctrines.)
Does God also hold his word higher than himself as you do? "God is virtually unknowable except through his word?" This is proof that you hold the Bible higher than God. God can speak to me anytime he wants, and he does because I know how to listen to him. You do not think that God speaks to you because you DO NOT know how to listen to him. After reading all your theology and doctrine, now I understand why you are so lost. This is truly at the heart of what you're missing in your relationship with God, you don't even know him! You don't ever hear from him outside of your "authenticated" Bible do you? You don't know visions, you don't know words, His miracles today, discipleship, discernment. Now that I know exactly what you're missing, I truly feel sorry for you. We do not meet God in the Bible alone, we meet God TODAY. God is the same yesterday, TODAY, and forever. God speaks to us through the Bible, AND through the things that happen in our daily lives, through our experiences, through your hardships, through our sorrows, and through our joys. If you do not see that then you are still trying in vain to earn your way to Heaven. God is not silent, He is speaking to you RIGHT NOW, you just haven't learnt how to listen yet. When you pray, do you re
ally belie that it is a one-way prayer to God? Prayer IS a two-way street. Signs and wonders are happening all around us everyday, you just do not know how to recognize them because you have your mind focused on "religion" and earning your way to Heaven. No matter how many scriptures you quote at me, you contradict them yourself with your religiosity.
By the way, do you know the number one way of how Christians confuse each other into believing something about the Bible which is not true? They quote Bible verses out of context to each other. They pull a string of words out of the Bible and use it as proof that God is "like" this or "says" that. Since you see Paul as your Savior, (please tell me you don't also have a rosary with Paul on the cross instead of Jesus,) I'll quote a verse from Romans for you. Here's a good one for you, "...make up your mind not to put any stumbling blocks or obstacles in your brothers way." (Romans 14:12) See? When people quote the Bible out of context, as you so often do, people can make the Bible say anything.
We have God's written word, you claim we have the Holy Spirit, (which you don't know the Holy Spirit,) but you are missing God because you still have his word higher than God himself and His Holy Spirit. What more do we need? I think it's quite clear what you need.
Deborah.
On the contrary, it now has nothing to do with your contradictory belief about the Gifts of the Spirit, but your heretical doctrine. Please do not flatter yourself in thinking that I am taking more time to entertain your false views than making Him known throughout the world. You have a right to exercise any view you have, but you also have a right to the truth, and I hope you to take that more seriously than any view you have about anything. I would certainly not call this a non-essential thing in faith, because you are not even a part of the scriptures in your views.
Why do you believe that you have to do through another human being to get to Christ? Is that what Jesus taught anywhere? No. Did Paul teach that you have to go through him to get to Christ? Certainly not.
What you have done is put a glass window between you and Christ. You see Christ though the eyes of Paul (once again something Paul was NOT teaching.) You see Jesus through the window of Paul's Gospel, and Paul does say some great things as do all the other Disciples. But because you put the window of Paul's Gospel between you and Christ, you are now separated from Him. You can see Jesus through Paul's Gospel, but because you put the Gospel in between you and Jesus, you do not know Him outside of your Paulist view. You can see Him through the window, but you cannot reach out and touch Him.
This is very sad, and dangerous. It is sad because you do not have a full relationship with the one true God because you think you have to go through another person to get it, and this is dangerous because I really do hope and pray that because of your Paulism you are not eternally separated from God. I tend not to care much for denominational disagreements, but believing that only one Apostle has the "true" Gospel and you have to go through him really is not a denomination at all. I suspected it from the start, but now that I know what you Paulist people are like and what is at the heart of your doctrine that dictates your relationship with God, Paulism really is a fine definition of a cult, not a denomination. Because of your cult doctrine of "Revelation of Mystery," you cannot hold Jesus's hand, you cannot have Him lead you, because you would rather Paul lead you. i am so glad that I have Jesus as my Saviour instead of Paul, because at the end of the day, Paul is just a man, he is not the Son of God.
Would you like to know something really cool? What is Jesus's favourite colour? I have a friend who asked Jesus that. (Ya, she asked JESUS, not Paul.) Because Jesus IS real, Jesus LIVES in each one of us, and Jesus TALKS to us,(and no Paul does NOT also live in each one of us, nor does Paul talk to us today), Jesus answered. It took a few months, because God doesn't always choose to answer right away. Jesus answered with Vermilion. Vermilion is a bright shade of red, or dark "blood" red as some dictionaries say.
Now if you asked Paul what his favourite colour is, he wouldn't answer because he is in Heaven. But Jesus DOES answer because He lives.
Jesus or Paul? I pray that anyone reading this blog will know and see that NO OTHER HUMAN BEING saves but Jesus Christ our Lord.
Orig. Anon.,
So you must be British, right? I see you spell "favorite" and "color" with a "u" in it. I'm British by descent, too; and my favorite color is pink.
I'm making a note to remind me to ask Paul his favorite color when I get there. Bet it's one God created for heaven that we don't even know about yet! What do you think of that?
Peace and love of Jesus Christ,
Deborah
To Tom, I see that you tried to post a comment on here; not sure why it didn't go on. Perhaps you could try again or I could post it for you using the confirmation email I rec'd.
Deborah
How can they say the gifts and tongues have ceased when Paul wrote extensively to the Corinthians about their proper use in the church assembly? Paul said to covet to prophesy and he said he spoke in tongues more than anyone else. Something's fishy with this idea of robbing God of His power.
"That which is perfect" has come: the completed Bible. Now there's no need for special prophesyings and edification through tongues and other spiritual phenomona as we receive all of our information about and from God through his word. God's power hasn't diminished -- his means of communication with his people has; that's all. Isn't God's perfect inspired preserved word enough for us?
Deborah
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