Sunday, September 13, 2009

Chuck and Nancy Missler's Protestant Purgatory



After years of being a regular guest speaker at Calvary Chapel's Great Lakes Prophecy Conference at Calvary Chapel of Appleton, Wisconsin, this year Chuck Missler was suddenly dropped from the roster shortly before the conference took place the weekend of September 11-13. During the Q & A session, conference goers, of which I was one, were finally told the truth about why Chuck wasn't there.
The reason concerns a book by Chuck and his wife, Nancy, that their Koinonia House Ministry recently released, "The Kingdom, Power, & Glory: The Overcomer's Handbook." Calvary Chapel of Appleton pastor Dwight Douville, Tommy Ice of Pre-Trib Research Center, and pastor Joe Focht of Calvary Chapel - Philadelphia held a conference call with Chuck Missler in which they expressed concern over a teaching contained in the new book; namely, that although "carnal Christians" will be raptured along with "Spirit-filled Christians," they will find themselves "cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matt. 8:12, 22:13, 25:30). Pastor Douville also reported that the Misslers speculate in the book that this punishment could last for the entire millennial period, while spiritual Christians will be given authority to rule and reign with Christ "in the Millennial Kingdom."

Pastor Douville and some of the guest speakers on the stage expressed a feeling of being "deeply grieved" at not only Chuck and Nancy wandering into this error but also at their refusal to recant and recall the books. Because of the Missler's refusal to correct their error, Chuck was regretfully uninvited from the conference this year. Although Calvary Chapel theology is itself rife with error regarding the terms of salvation, application of Scripture, timing of Biblical prophetic events, our new identity in Christ, and facts about the afterlife, I think you'll agree that this was a commendable decision in guarding their congregations from these particular un-Biblical ideas.

I have had the pleasure of personally meeting Mr. Missler at previous prophecy conferences at Calvary Chapel of Appleton; and I found him to be unfailingly approachable and friendly. He once gave me one of his teaching media tools for my son who was in Iraq at the time. He is dazzlingly brilliant in many areas, including quantum physics, in particular nano-particles and string theory, world history, and military matters; and he can rattle off his ideas at a dizzying speed! Chuck has one glaring deficiency in his approach to Bible study, however, and that is the fact that he does not recognize the distinctions in God's word between his dealings with Israel in time past and in the ages to come, and with the church which is his body in the "but now."  More than once over the past few years, I have determined to write to Chuck and open a discussion with him on the subject of "rightly dividing the word of truth" according to 2 Timothy 2:15 laid down for us by our God-given apostle of the Gentiles, Paul. The fact that I never got around to doing that makes me partly to blame for the Misslers wandering into gross error of this kind.

The idea of "the children of the kingdom" being cast into outer darkness," and the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" concept is found exclusively in Scriptures addressed to (Matt. 15:24) and concerning ONLY the nation of Israel during Christ's specific ministry to her. God did not address the Gentiles directly until he set Israel's kingdom promises aside and raised up a new apostle, Paul, to "bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel." (Acts 9:15). During Israel's program in time past, in the Acts period, and in the ages to come (tribulation, millennium), Gentiles were to find salvation through Israel's witness. In the "but now" (Eph. 2:13), the age of Gentile grace (Eph. 3:1, 2), God's unique gospel of grace according to the revelation of the mystery committed to Paul, is made known through the inspired writings of our apostle in his post-Acts epistles.

The church which is Christ's body, comprised of individual Gentiles and Jews saved by Paul's gospel, is reconciled to God through Christ (2 Cor. 5:19) having been made the "righteousness of God in him." We are "complete in him," and "accepted in the beloved," having "redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace." These are but a few of the "all spiritual blessings" even the most carnal believer has in Christ! In essence, when God looks at us, he sees his Son, for we are "in him" by the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit when he seals us with himself for eternity. For God to cast one of us into "outer darkness" would be the same as God casting the Lord Jesus Christ there as well! The Misslers have a fundamental misunderstanding of who we are made to be in Christ for simply believing the gospel of our salvation for today. Carnal or not, saved or not, sin is no longer the issue with God as all have been reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, especially the believer.

Confusing the Body of Christ's heavenly destination with redeemed Israel's earthly one by reading someone else's "mail," results in a myriad of errors that keep on compounding if not corrected. Israel will inherit the earth -- not the Body of Christ -- and because she is under the curse of the law and prophesied courses of punishment (Lev. 26) when her program is in effect, there are stiff penalties recorded for failure to hearken to God's requirements during her ultimate time of testing, the tribulation period. Entrance to the kingdom in the inner portion of the land is granted only to a faithful remnant, the "overcomers," a term that Missler erroneously applies to the church which is his body saved by grace.  Those Israelites who go through the tribulation in an unfaithful attitude of disobedience and unbelief will indeed find themselves left out of the promised reward, the earthly kingdom. No such future awaits even the most carnal member of the Body of Christ who is already seated with Christ in the heavenlies

Those of us who truly love Christ will labor in love by preaching him according to the revelation of the mystery given exclusively to and through our apostle, Paul, and by allowing Christ to live through us by his Spirit by learning and living the doctrines given to us in Paul's post-Acts epistles. Rightly dividing the word of truth will guard us from serious error and from furthering Satan's plan of evil to deceive and confuse us as to where in God's word we must go to find God's message for today.

I sincerely hope that Chuck and Nancy Missler - and members of Calvary Chapel who read this - will seek out good grace teaching, some of which can be found at links listed at the bottom of this page. It's never too late to begin doing God's will, which is "to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God." (Eph. 3:9).

Update (9/23/09): Discovered this Q & A about the book on one of the Missler's websites. Question #1 on the meaning of "outer darkness" is answered by explaining that this is "simply a metaphor for being excluded from the joy of Christ's presence." To state that this is the fate of a saved believer contradicts all of Paul's writings after receiving the post-Acts revelation of the mystery in which he declares that we are "seated in heavenly places in Christ" and "accepted in the beloved" in his letter to the Ephesians.


61 comments:

Rita said...

Well said, Sister. I hope the Missler's get to read this and heed your advice. Better to be a bit embarrassed by a mistake that is fixed than to suffer loss with God for the deliberate failure to heed correction. May we ourselves stay in God's word 'rightly' studying. May others who read this realize that it is a matter of compassion for misled souls that reveals their errors to them.

Deborah Collins said...

Thank you, Rita. The article isn't meant to hurt anyone's feelings, but to make a connection between failure to rightly divide God's word and these kinds of mistakes. My husband, son, and I have loved the Misslers for a very long time, as well as those who attend Calvary Chapel.

Here's hoping the wake up call goes out loud and clear.

Deborah

Mark said...

Hi Deborah,

Chuck Missler was instrumental to me in my growth as an early Christian and I really like him. I too sure hope he figures this out and am glad you have pointed it out to him.

Good article.

MarkM

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, Mark, and thanks for commenting.

I'd be willing to venture that all of us at some time or another have entertained an unorthodox, maybe even bordering on heretical, view of something in the Scriptures. The only difference is, we didn't have the opportunity to tell the world about it in a published book! And we later thank God for that, amen?

Chuck and Nancy here have the opportunity to set an example of an adult son of God in admitting and acting to retract this mistake. The Body of Christ needs "grown-up gracers" who are strong enough to do this.

I'll be hoping they are along with you, Mark. I love them, too.

Deborah

Anonymous said...

Deborah, This is the first time I have seen your blog. A friend sent it to me. I too was in attendance at the conference. Regarding your statement "Although Calvary Chapel theology is itself rife with error regarding the terms of salvation, application of Scripture, timing of Biblical prophetic events, our new identity in Christ, and facts about the afterlife," would you please elaborate on what you refer?
Also would you please tell us what your biblical background is?

Deborah Collins said...

Thanks, Anon, for your inquiry. Although I attended Calvary Chapel for over ten years, I can no longer in good conscience lead others to believe they teach God's truth for the Body of Christ.

They err on the terms of salvation by adding a condition God doesn't add, i.e., that you must "turn from your sin" in order to accept Christ. They are Arminian in their view of the security of the believer in that they teach that someone who has previously trusted Christ can forfeit their salvation through unfaithfulness and future unbelief. Paul most definitely teaches eternal security of every believer, not dependent on anything we do, as Christ did it all.

Calvary Chapel reads through the Bible verse by verse but haphazardly applies nearly all Scripture to the Body of Christ today when only Paul's inspired writings are to and about us and contain our special doctrines for living the grace life. Applying any of Israel's scriptures to us results in some legalism being mixed with our grace. For example, CC will teach that although we are forgiven through Christ's sacrifice, we still must forgive others' trespasses or our "heavenly Father will not forgive you." (Matt. 6). This is contradictory and caused by failure to rightly divide.

Calvary Chapel teaches that prophecy is being "fulfilled before our very eyes." In saying this, they cite passages from Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and other of Israel's scriptures, although Israel's prophetic program is being held in abeyance while God works out the mystery he committed to Paul. Paul's prophetic utterances such as that evil men shall wax worse and worse, and that perilous times would come in the last days, are certainly being fulfilled today, but no part of Israel's prophetic program is in effect today. This includes Ezekiel 38, which Calvary Chapel is fond of citing as something that will occur before the rapture.

Calvary Chapel does not understand who believers have been made to be in Christ, in that we have the "rightousness of God in him." One example of their misconception is that they teach that believers must confess ongoing sin in order to be forgiven. They cite 1 John 1:9 to prove this, although John was Israel's apostle, not ours. Paul, who is our apostle, states that when we believe, we already have the "forgiveness of sins." I believe it is an insult to God to ask him again for something he has already given.

As I pointed out in the article, the Body of Christ will populate God's heaven, not the earth, which is Israel's inheritance. CC teaches that we will return with Christ at his second coming and rule and reign upon the earth in the millennial kingdom, which is false. The positions currently held by Satan & Co. in the heavens will need to be replaced with godly beings, which will be our role.

Soon after believing the gospel, I noticed some (supposed) contradictions in the New Testament as regards law and grace, so I went in search of the answer to the dilemma. (i.e., James 2:24 v. Romans 3 & Titus 3:5). I found the answer in C.R. Stam's "Things That Differ," (link on blog) and the whole of Scripture opened up to me in a new way. What a relief to live by God's grace and not under the bondage of law or works!

If you'd like to discuss any of these statements or have questions, please feel free to contact me at dfkuz@hotmail.com.

At his service and yours,
Deborah

Tim said...

Hi Deborah,
Can you please confirm that you have read the Missler's entire book?

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, Tim, and thanks for your question. Nowhere in the Missler article did I ever state that I read the Missler's book so there's nothing to confirm. If you'd like to send me one, I'd be glad to read it!

What I reported in the article was what was announced at the Calvary Chapel Prophecy Conference as to the reason Chuck would not speak this year. If you have information that disproves or contradicts what Pastor Dwight Douville shared about the book, I'd be interested in knowing it.

In the article, I linked to an article in "Nan's Corner," containing Nancy Missler's summary of the book. From her words alone, one can see that the Missler's rely heavily on scriptures pertaining exclusively to Israel in their law/prophecy program and not entirely on our grace/mystery program through Paul. While I agree that in both programs there will be an assignment of rewards and positions of authority given to those who have done God's will for their respective program, in this grace age, that is preaching the gospel according to the "fellowship of the mystery" (Eph. 3:9), "according to the grace of God" (1 Cor. 3:10), which includes the fact that once placed into Christ's body by a supernatural baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13), we are sealed with the Holy Spirit which is now the earnest of the purchased possession. No punishment or banishment awaits any part of Christ's own body.

Despite Chuck and Nancy's fame as evangelical Bible teachers, Nan's article contains what I would consider to be "another gospel," in that she writes, "Being “born again” by asking the Holy Spirit into our lives will get us into the Millennial Kingdom..."! That's a new one on me, Tim!

Again, if you or another reader has "inside" information that any statements I have made regarding the Missler's book, "The Kingdom, Power & Glory: The Overcomer's Handbook," are false, please let me know so that I can publish a retraction.

Following Paul as he followed Christ,
Deborah

Tim said...

Hi Deborah,
You may be honestly mistaken, so I hope that when you hear the truth from me, you will quit being mistaken. I would hate to think that you are dishonest. (taken from your tagline for the blog.)

You begin your blog with a picture of the book in question and a title, “Chuck and Nancy Missler’s Protestant Purgatory.” Your comments are based on Pastor Douville’s report, but you are obviously passing judgment on the book. So, here are the things you should retract:

1. In their book, the Misslers refute the idea of Purgatory and condemn that Roman falsehood. Attaching it to their names in the title of your piece is wrong.

2. You pass on Pastor Douville’s comment that, “this punishment” could last for the entire millennial period. The book is careful to explain that no punishment is involved with the Bema Seat. You have passed on wrong information without even taking the time to check it out yourself. In your reply to my post you comment that, “there will be an assignment of rewards and positions of authority given to those who have done God’s will.” You should have caught this issue.

3. You go beyond merely reporting Pastor Douville’s comments. You use them as a basis to form your own opinions and then reject the book without even owning a copy. You intend to prejudice others against the Misslers’ work based only on hearsay.

4. You state that, “this was a commendable decision in guarding their congregations from these particular un-Biblical ideas.” How can you go so far as to call the teaching in the book un-Biblical without studying what it has to say?

5. You claim that, “the Misslers have a fundamental misunderstanding of who we are made to be in Christ for simply believing”. Really? Did Pastor Douville say that, or did you? Why then is there a whole chapter near the beginning of the book entitled “Eternal Security” and filled with the message that we are saved only by grace through faith? The Misslers may not agree with your views (which are generally labeled as “hyper-dispensationalism”), but you malign them when you say they have a fundamental misunderstanding of the gospel.

6. You state, “Entrance to the kingdom is granted only to a faithful remnant, the "overcomers," a term that Missler erroneously applies to the Body of Christ saved by grace without law or works of any kind.” Please read chapters 2 and 3 in Revelation where the term “he who overcomes” is applied to the churches by the Head of the body, the Lord Jesus Christ. You might meditate on just what exactly is being overcome…

7. In reply to the first comment to this blog, you state that you love Chuck and Nancy Missler. If that is the case, how could you treat them this way? Did you smile when you thought up the line, “Chuck Missler cast into outer darkness by Calvary Chapel” Pastor Douville didn’t help you come up with that one.

You are a sister in the Lord, but you have made some grave errors in posting this blog. I have only listed a few. I fear you have succumbed to the titillation of hearing juicy news at a conference, having your favorite opinions against the church triggered, and then indulged in what amounts to slander based on hearsay. Some might call it tale-bearing, or gossip.

My prayer is that you would replace the blog with a new one that expresses godly sorrow for not walking in the Spirit (Gal. 5:25).

May God grant you a humble spirit to receive instruction.

Deborah Collins said...

Dear Tim,

Am I to understand by your comments that you have read the book? If so, please tell us once and for all whether the Misslers are saying that those who aren't deemed "overcomers" by God will be barred from full enjoyment of the "kingdom." That's the basis on which some speakers at the conference came up with, "Protestant Purgatory," which I believe is apt if this is the case.

I'll be glad to answer your other objections but until I can obtain my own copy of the book, we'll be relying on you to answer the above question since you seem to have read it.

Thank you for any help you can give us with this issue.

Deborah

Tim said...

Deborah,
I have read the book and am re-reading it; it is "connecting dots" for me. This is meat, not milk, and the vocabulary seems to be critical. I cannot give you a simple answer to your question because we would have to talk about which kingdom you are talking about and just what aspect of salvation is being dealt with at that point.

From what I have learned, I think your comment about believers being rewarded, based on behavior here on earth, is the common ground you have with the Misslers. If I translate that back to your own question, I would say that you yourself teach that not everyone will enjoy the same benefits in the kingdom.

I know I was strong in my criticism of your blog and your attitude. Frankly, I have you pegged as someone who has become puffed up with knowledge and does not know how to apply Agape as it is described in 1 Cor. 13. As a teaching elder in the church (ordained and qualified per scripture) I want to protect the flock. Your blog does not advance God's purposes to build up in love, but instead brings out the flesh. It should be replaced.

There is certainly room to disagree with what the Missler's have written. In fact, they encourage readers to do their own research and reach their own conclusions based on Acts 17:11. They are not, however, going so far out that they should be excluded from fellowship and not given a hearing. In fact, if they are to be treated this way, then many other well-known teachers and scholars who are quoted in the book should receive similar treatment.

My guess is that you will not profit from the book. As soon as you see Matthew quoted you will likely stop reading, revert to hyper-dispensationalism and renounce the Misslers and the other teachers who agree with them.

As your blog shows, you are on a crusade to bring correction to everyone with your special knowledge. Have you not understood your apostle Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 14:29-35 that a woman is not to publicly pass judgment on teaching in the church? He says that what you are doing is "shameful".

I know that "hyper's" teach that believers don't need to ask God's forgiveness anymore. Nevertheless, I hope you see your need for repentance, i.e. for changing your mind.

I will give you the last word, and I'll read it. However, I doubt that I will be continuing any further. You have the Spirit, and He will accomplish God's will to make you, "conformed to the image of Christ".

Anonymous said...

How can you write a blog on a book you haven't read? You should educate yourself before speaking out so boldly. You also seem to be a follower of the apostle Paul rather than Jesus Christ. Why would you tear down another believer, so publically, without serious study of what they are trying to say? wow! May Gods grace be with you.

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, Pastor Tyler and thanks again for writing although you did not even attempt to answer my question. You'll be glad to know that I have ordered a copy of the book. I apologize if I have presented myself as being unloving. Parents love their children, but we don't approve of all they say or do. In a case of false doctrine such as this, I say with Paul, "For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ." (Gal. 1:10). I am many times too flippant in my manner and am leaning on the Holy Spirit's work in me.

Tim, I would never get up in a pulpit to preach to an audience of men and women, This blog simply contains my thoughts on the current state of affairs in Christendom today. Any who read it do so at their own discretion.

I had an ulterior motive to presenting the subject of the Misslers' misstep on doctrine: to use it as an example of what happens when Christians don't recognize our place in God's plan. We're not a continuation of Israel, but a "new creature," fitted for heavenly places in Christ. Mixing our mystery revelation with Israel's prophetic revelation causes confusion and error. That's the basis of my blog, not hurting feelings. Who we are in Christ and where we find our Body doctrine is too important to sweep under the rug and this seemed a good opportunity to point this out especially knowing evangelicals would find the article, as so many Acts 2 Christians have anxious fears about whether God really approves of them. If this reaches even a few of them it will be worth being called names by you or anyone else.

What the Misslers seem to be saying about "outer darkness" may be true for the children of the kingdom who will be tested for their faithfulness during the tribulation. What I object to, from a mid-Acts dispensationalism ("hyper" refers to those who feel the Church begins after Acts 28), is applying scriptures obviously for God's chosen nation to the Body of Christ.

God wrote us a love letter thru Paul with the all-good news of our total acceptance, peace and reconciliation with him through believing the gospel for today. (1 Cor. 15:1-4). "There is now no condemnation..." We are "hid with Christ in God." Nothing bad will ever happen to us unless it happens to Christ; we are "in him." The only disappointment, shame, or loss will be but for a moment at the judgment seat of Christ when we see our fleshly works burned. We will never be separated from Christ and that joy will fill our eternity. Some may be given positions of authority, but the rest of us will rejoice for them.

On a Q & A about the book on one of the Missler's websites, a question on the meaning of "outer darkness" is answered that this is "simply a metaphor for being excluded from the joy of Christ's presence." To state that this is the fate of a saved believer contradicts all of Paul's writings, especially, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thess. 4:17). To apply this fate to someone saved purely by God's grace is to malign that grace.

I realize that you have a vested interest in the Missler's ministry and you have done a stalwart job of attacking my "message" and "the messenger." This is in keeping with Satan's plan of evil for this grace age as he seeks to confuse even believers about what God has done for us through the all-sufficient cross work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Chuck and Nancy have done much to defend the pre-trib rapture of the Church and the eternal security of the believer that I'm confident they will explore this matter further and set things to right.

My best to you,
Deborah

Anonymous said...

Did not read the book first before posting all that...

Prov 18:13
He that answereth a matter before he heareth(reads) [it], it [is] folly and shame unto him.

Prov 17:9
He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth [very] friends.

John 13:35
By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Proverbs 13:10
Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised [is] wisdom.

Take not the Lords name in vain.

Mathew 18:15
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother

Deborah, please apologize to Chuck and Nancy...even if you are correct, the way you are going about this drags God's name through the mud and makes it so much harder to encourage non-believers that we Christians are safe.

Steve

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, Steve. Thanks for commenting.

About not having read the book before posting, I'd have to state that despite the fact that I no longer attend Calvary Chapel, I have the utmost respect for the honesty and integrity of the men who reported this problem with the Misslers, resulting in the decision to drop Chuck from the speakers' roster. I have done what research I can and have ordered a copy of the book. My research confirms that a problem does exist, but if reading the book changes that conclusion in any way, I will write a retraction.

As I said before, I have confidence that the Misslers will correct this error before it does more damage to the more vulnerable in the Body. False doctrine like this book promotes needs to be addressed on a public level as it is in the public venue.

Non-believers need to understand that true grace believers categorically reject the doctrines of Mormonism, Adventism, JW-ism, etc., as well as this type of misapplication of God's word resulting in legalism.

God's word can't be "dragged through the mud;" it is inviolable and stands forever, and states that he "will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

Deborah

Steve said...

I will have to agree with some others on here... you need to read the book first... before passing on personal opinions about what others have said.

Your original blog veers dangerously into some libelous territory... especially when you implied that speakers agreed at being deeply grieved in the Missler's error...but you did not name the speakers... that leaves folks to wonder at who did... and who did not agree with Douville. That's a sad misrepresentation of the event and would open you up to potential legal action if those involved chose to.

Then some blanket statements against Calvary Chapel theology is also problematic.

I think I'll wait until you have a bout 15 - 20 million tapes and CDs published AND LISTEN TO THEM before I start picking apart your "un-biblical" errors on a blog.

I know this... The Millenial Kingdom is not a perfectly taught topic by any single Pastor/Teacher alive today. There is a considerable amount of speculation from everyone I've ever heard from. The very reason that there ARE conferences is a testimony to the fact that we are all wanting to learn... even if it takes us into uncomfortable places.

Steve "The Buckethead Baptist"

Deborah Collins said...

Hi again Steve...love your nickname!

The reason I didn't name the speakers who were in agreement with the statements is that it's difficult to be sure in a situation like that. I will venture to say, however, that if memory serves, it was T.A. McMahon of The Berean Call who coined the term, "Protestant Purgatory;" I can't take the credit.

Which of my statements about Calvary Chapel theology do you feel are in error? I'd be happy to discuss them. I've spoken to CC pastors, listened to their radio station, & about a thousand of their tapes, so I'm fairly conversant with the subject.

As per the Millennial Kingdom, I agree it's a deep subject, but one thing is certain, nothing about it is applicable to the Body of Christ saved by grace & destined for heaven. Taking scriptures about it and Israel's time of testing and applying them to believers today results in the one thing that won't get an unbeliever saved: not completely trusting Christ! He did everything necessary for us to be justified from all sin and to receive Christ's own righteousness on our account with God. That leaves no room for any "outer darkness"! God's grace is sufficient.

I appreciate your thoughts,
Deborah

Anonymous said...

Deborah,
God's name can be drug through the mud when it is attached to people like me at times who call themselves Christians and live like heathens.

Question for you...what is more important to you, being right or being in right standing with your brother and sister in Christ.
When you get to heaven and meet Chuck and Nancy will there be an awkward moment? Or will you have "Stored up for yourself treasures in heaven?...For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." Do you treasure what God treasures? If you do you should apologize to them.
I would think the better way to handle this is with prayer. If you truly believe they are grossly in error and could damage things take it to prayer and let God be the judge.
Pro 15:29 The LORD [is] far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
Jam 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

The other Steve...(Not the "Bucket head")

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, Steve (the regular one, that is),

If it makes anyone feel any better, I am very sorry that I had to be the one to expose this on the Internet. Chuck and Nancy are very dear people, and we've all made mistakes in theology. I'm fortunate that mine have been done in relative obscurity! But therein lies the rub: there are many evangelicals who unquestionably believe everything the Misslers teach. If my article gets a few to question what they read and hear, it will have been worth posting.

In praying for the same boldness that Paul hoped for in Eph. 6:19: "And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel," there has been some collateral damage, I'm sure. But please consider, for wxample, Martin Luther. What if he had been hesitant to offend his superiors in the Church of Rome, and if others had followed suit and simply kept quiet about this grace through faith in Christ alone salvation they saw in Paul's writings? Or if godly men shrank back from translating the Bible into English for fear of offense?

As Paul states a few verses before, "...take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand." The Misslers book takes readers right to the doorstep of the apostasy that has been growing since Paul's day. I pray that not too many stumble over it but that they be Bereans and test the scripture.

In grace,
Deborah

Anonymous said...

You mention Ephesians 6. What about verse 12?

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]

Eph. 6:19: "And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel"

This would more aptly be applied to what Chuck and Nancy are putting forth in their book, not to what you are doing. Are you bold making known the mystery of the gospel? They are, and in the book Chuck and Nancy explain more of the mystery that was revealed by Paul to those of us who did not understand rewards in heaven.

When you do read the book you should be open as the Bereans were. And search the scriptures. I hope that you will change your position as it could have eternal consequences...inheritance not salvation.

Steve

Tan2Day said...

I'm new here, but not to the CC system, its touring speakers nor the Misslers. I believe I have every Missler presentation ever made, most of Jacob Prasch's, many of David Hockings, and dozens and dozens of Berean Call { Hunt and DM } teachings, as such I've followed most of these teachers for five years or longer.

That being said, I've had to put out fires started by this blog over on other boards, where dear friends, have actually turned on the Misslers over the GROSS ERRORS this blog and the CC Appleton conference { which I watched live as it played out on the nets }

First of all, for those with such "DEEPLY HELD CONVICTIONS" that Nancy and Chuck are borderline heretics now, cause they don't agree with "outer darkness" who ADMIT to not buying, reading and studying the book, AND not buying listening to, and studying the ELEVEN HOURS that Nancy put out there going almost page by page through her book, are not only wrong, but grossly wrong, massively wrong, unbelievably wrong.

One does NOT tear a well known and beloved teacher to shreds based on half baked, cockeyed, second hand, and poorly researched OPINIONS on what they said, or wrote. That is so amateurish, childish, and unfair as to merit the approbation such blogsters.

This has cause me much grief, I have had to spend a LOT of time, with those who "Love Misser" but now are tossing him out last last weeks newspapers CAUSE they "heard that this or that said, about that and this..."

Good grief.

Last week, Missler issued a verbal 5 minute answer to these charges { and THIS BLOG without naming it as such} I have uploaded it for anyone to download who wishes it is in MP3 format

CLICK HERE TO DOWNLOAD: -> http://sn.im/s6oo9-lcc

And apparently has caused Chuck to come out with a full two HOUR rebuttal to these bogus charges, based upon lack of understanding, AND lack of any actual effort to actually READ or listen to the TOPIC.

Here is a link to the flyer:

http://i33.tinypic.com/on6ft.jpg

Bruce S.

Deborah Collins said...

Dear Steve,

You'll be happy to learn that the book arrived and I'm halfway through reading it. I'm sorry to report that so far it confirms everything that was said about it at the conference and more. Yes, it's loaded with scripture (from the KJV, of which I heartily approve!) from Paul's epistles and they, of course, speak for themselves of the truth for this dispensation of grace. Oftentimes, the writers do apply these grace doctrines correctly, but a glass of pure water to which just one drop of arsenic is added instantly becomes poison.

Yes, Steve, we do wrestle against the spiritual powers of darkness, and those powers like nothing better than to see people confused about what God is doing today by grace. They know that when people are constantly monitoring their own performance and worrying that they're not producing enough "fruit," their eyes are not on Christ and what he has completely accomplished FOR us at Calvary. Sanctification is not our responsibility; it's the Holy Spirit's; and we who believe Paul's gospel already possess positional sanctification in which we will stand at the Bema Seat. It's part of the "we shall all be changed" of 1 Cor 15:51!

Steve, it's not the idea of "rewards" that I disagree with because that part is true; it's the idea of any form of chastisement (punishment, which it IS!) taking place in heaven.

I will do a review of the book when I am finished reading it.

Deborah

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, Bruce, and thanks for joining the discussion. As I told Steve above, I have rec'd the book and am reading it. I'm happy to report that thus far it doesn't look like any of the material was plaigerized from another author, as Chuck has admitted to having done in the past.

Chuck and Nancy have contributed greatly to our pool of resources on Bible prophecy and history, and, up to now, of application of spiritual principles found in Paul's writings. Anyone who ceases to love them in Christ due to reading a criticism of their most recent work should be ashamed of himself. But if the Misslers, in turn, truly love their followers, they will rethink their position on a believer's chastisement period in the afterlife based on their human shortcomings in this life, for which Christ has paid the full penalty in advance.

Misslers, the ball is in your court!

I will seek out Chuck's comments and prayerfully consider them, of course.

In Christ's eternal love,
Deborah

Anonymous said...

****Hi, Bruce, and thanks for joining the discussion. As I told Steve above, I have rec'd the book and am reading it. I'm happy to report that thus far it doesn't look like any of the material was plaigerized from another author, as Chuck has admitted to having done in the past****

Dear, you just lost me with that one. What a CHEAP SHOT. Now I think I have your number hon, I'm glad I dont' personally have to meet YOUR STANDARDS of perfection, and I'm sure YOU wouldn't like others holding YOU to the same standards YOU apparently demand of the Misslers.

Oh...

.. I posted this on another board about your earlier comment:

***Well, there is her reply.


ONE DROP makes the person a flaming heretic. One.

I'm glad that WE are not held to that STANDARD for being considered an "acceptable teacher."

Oh, guess WHO gets to determine WHAT IS THAT ONE DROP OF BAD TEACHING?

Given the standards I've seen the critics here there and elsewhere using, it is actually funny, that a lifetime of teachings, is WORTHLESS cause they don't agree with some nit or other that a teacher speculates on.

Using THAT STANDARD, you actually would NEED a PURGATORY, for ANYONE to be "Pure Enough" to meet their standards of Orthodoxy.

Bruce

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, Bruce,

There's a reason behind the statement I made about Chuck's plagiarism. It's becoming obvious that Chuck & Nancy have "fans" that are willing to check their brains and Bibles at the door when pronouncements from "on high" are made. It's time for those fans to realize that Chuck and Nan are just like the rest of us sinners saved by grace; however, Chuck sets himself up as an authority, a "bishop," if you will. 1 Tim 3:2 says "A bishop then must be blameless..." It's been reported that even after the plagiarism was discovered and admitted, a later revision of the book ("The MaGog Invasion") came out with much of the plagiarism still in it! I think this book is still available for sale. Here's a site w/info:

http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/missler-plagiarism

How can Chuck & Nancy know if they have repented for this enough to have it not matter at the Bema? This is the problem w/the whole idea of the threat of outer darkness: how can we know what God will or will not hold against us there? Like Catholics, we would never be truly sure of making the grade. What kind of confident Christians who love to share their testimony does that produce?

So Chuck quickly put a rebuttal of this current criticism into a media package for sale on his site? Why not simply have it free on the Internet? Why does he say so happily that controversy sells books? Why does he sound like he has a team of lawyers working for him? Why is the sale of materials so prominent in his presentations(that sound more like infomercials) and on his site?

Could it be possible that a cult of personality has been built up around him leading to the neglect of sound doctrine? Is this what Paul means by "heaping to themselves teachers, having itching ears"?

Please don't let adulation for a man, albeit a charming one, and his wife, a lovely lady by any standards, stand in the way of God's truth from Scripture.

Deborah

Anonymous said...

->however, Chuck sets himself up as an authority, a "bishop," if you will. 1 Tim 3:2 says "A bishop then must be blameless..."<-

Oh horsefeathers.

If you cannot discdern the difference between a BIBLICAL BISHOP, and a bible expositor, you are even less sharp than you have shown yourself to be so far.

Dear, you are acting like YOU ALONE are the Pope of the World. Are you going to declare yourself as "infallible" next?

Seriously.

All this over a TINY PART of his massive corpus of lifetime teachings?

You seriously need to get some perspective here dear, and after reading the rest of your blog, I can see your "Paulist Gospel" is just massive Hyperdispensationism, and I AM A DISPIE and I can see the errors all over this.

Hon, step back, now. You are not doing yourself any favors with this transparent rant against one of the good guys out there in bible teaching land.

Bruce

Anonymous said...

->So Chuck quickly put a rebuttal of this current criticism into a media package for sale on his site? Why not simply have it free on the Internet? Why does he say so happily that controversy sells books? Why does he sound like he has a team of lawyers working for him? Why is the sale of materials so prominent in his presentations(that sound more like infomercials) and on his site?<-

Now you are against a bible teacher making a LIVING BY SELLLING COMMENTARIES as well?

Not only are you cheap, but a communist as well?

As a "Pauline Gospel" advocate, have you forgotten what PAUL said about a person making a living by teaching the scriptures?

1 Timothy 5:17 (KJV) Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.


Bruce

Deborah Collins said...

Bruce, I appreciate your continuing loyalty to your fav teacher, but simply attacking me for upsetting the apple cart is drawing the focus away from the subject at hand, which is, that a failure to rightly divide the Scriptures between Israel's law program and the Body of Christ's grace program can result in an error being taught regarding the eternal inheritance of each.

I belatedly realized that my "one drop of poison" analogy could be taken to mean that the Missler's entire ministry should be scrapped; but what I was trying to get across is that one drop of law doctrine -from a time when Israel will receive her last installment of the Leviticus 26 curses for her failure to hearken - into the unique grace doctrine given to Paul to make known in the dispensation committed to him (Col. 1:25), can result in a lethal mixture of law and grace. (Rom. 11:6).

As for Chuck being a bishop, I would have to stand by that judging by the following he enjoys. Paul says the "blameless" label also applies to deacons (1 Tim. 3:10), so I think Chuck is in there somewhere.

See next comment for more.

Deborah

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, again, Bruce,

The fact that the Misslers have made an "industry" out of hawking and selling their wares is pretty obvious; and in almost every book Nan writes she tells the story of losing everything in a bad business situation but regaining it all back and more - big, beautiful house, property, cars, insurance, and apparently a team of lawyers. To tell you the truth, I don't care how they make their money...unless they begin teaching unsound doctrine denigrating what Christ has done for every member of the Body saved by grace by placing fear of chastisement in those who have trusted him.

Your choice of a scripture that pertains to "elders that rule" indicates that you DO admit Chuck is an authority figure such as a "bishop."

As I began to say earlier, has Chuck considered that in addition to confessing and repenting his sin of stealing another man's words, what if God expected him to quit his ministry altogether to avoid dishonoring the gospel? (This would be IF this "outer darkness" thing is true, which it isn't). What if Chuck himself is thrown into outer darkness for failing to step down after dishonoring the Lord's work by his plagiarism? What if? Glad I don't believe it could happen, but maybe Chuck should think about it, seeing as he does?

Standing fast,
Deborah

freeatlast said...

Calvary Chapel is thug christianity, especially Joe Fotch and his army from Philadelphia. This beast is as close to a cult that i've been a part of (16 years). Of course CC devours those who disagree, they've been doing that since Lonie Frisbee and have destroyed the faith of many.

Deborah Collins said...

Dear Freeatlast,

Thanks for stopping by! I completely agree that CC has "destroyed the faith of many," in that its members, who have believed their gospel concerning a "Jesus" who cannot save them without their continued faithfulness throughout their lives, think they're saved when they are not. In this way, CC is much like the RCC giving their congregations a false assurance on their way to an eternal hell. And those in the pews who have been saved by at one time completely trusting Christ are rendered useless as ambassadors when they fall for a constant diet of eternal insecurity.

I hope your screen name means that you are no longer one who doesn't totally trust the Lord Jesus Christ, his burial, and his resurrection for your eternal salvation!

Did some research into Lonnie Frisbee. Thanks for the mention of him as I had no clue of his involvement in the early CC movement. Interesting!

Deborah

SirNicolaus said...

i am curious about 1 thing... if we all get raptured and We are with Christ in heavenly places and we will never be seperated from him again... how do you explain when he comes down to earth to rule with a rod of iron sitting on the throne of David... are we not with him? if we never leave his presence??

Thanks for your reply in advance

God Bless

Nicolaus

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, SirNicolaus,

I appreciate your question and I have to admit I struggled with it myself when new to mid acts dispensationalism.

God is omnipresent, which means that the Lord Jesus Christ, who is God, is omnipresent also; therefore, he is not confined to one location. Even now, Christ is in heaven, but he's also "in you" (Col. 1:26, 27), and you are "in him," if you have trusted him.

During the millennium, the glorified Lord Jesus Christ will be with Israel in the kingdom and with the Body of Christ in heaven. Having shed these earthly tents for our "house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Cor. 5:1), we will be able to experience God's presence in a more meaningful way.

As members of his body, we are fellowheirs with Christ (Eph. 3:6). The inheritance of Jesus Christ is not only the earth, but the whole vast universe and beyond; and we will rule and reign with him over all of it. How's that for AWESOME?!

Thanks again for your question as it made me stop and consider these truths.

Deborah

Anonymous said...

Phl 2:12 . Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. NOW TELL ME IS THIS PASSAGE REFFERING TO OUR OWN EFFORTS TO BE SAVED!!!!!!!!!! DEFINITELY NOT BUT PAUL IT`S REFFERING TO SANCTIFICATION OF THE SOUL AND AS WE COULD SEE THAT PAUL WAS ALWAYS WORRYING ABOUT THIS RACE BECAUSE HE WAS AFRAID OF NOT BEING FOUND FIT. NOW TELL THAT THE MESSEGE OF THE KINGDOM, POWER, AND GLORY DOES NOT MAKE EVRYTHING CLEAR. BECAUSE JESUS CHRIST ALL THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES CALLS TO PERSEVERENCE TO THE END AND IF YOU DONT THEN ACCORDING TO HIM THE BELIVER IS NOT FIT FOR KINGSHIP AND PRIESTLY MINISTRY

Deborah Collins said...

Hello, ANONYMOUS (in all CAPS),

When we look at the context of the passage wherein Paul wrote, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," you'll quickly see that Paul is talking about the believer's conduct and service in THIS life "that ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, etc." "Work out your own salvation" emphasizes the fact that it is "your own salvation," something you own. No insecurity here, just encouragement to walk worthy while preaching the gospel!

As far as persevering to the end, it sure WAS the focus of Israel's gospel, I agree! Faithful Israel will be the "kings and priests" as promised in Isaiah, Exodus, and restated in Revelation. The Body of Christ is a "new creature," destined for heavenly places, not the earthly kingdom where priestly rituals will again be performed (Ezekiel). And Paul is OUR apostle who assures us that when we believe HIS gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Rom. 2:16), we are "accepted in the beloved" (Eph. 1:6) and already "blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ." What a difference from Israel's curses!

Deborah

SirNicolaus said...

another ? did you realize that the levitates don't get to do all the duties they used to? Ezekiel somewhere i think.

Thanks for the reply

Nicolaus

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, SirNic,

You mean during the millennial reign of Christ? It's my understanding that the Levites at that time will perform animal sacrifices more as a memorial and not as a sacrifice for sin. But the whole idea of having a sacrificial system during that time is a difficult one for us to accept, amen? God's ways are not our ways, but they're always as perfect as he is!

Deborah

SirNicolaus said...

only the sons of Zadok shall have access to minister to Christ - From what i gather anyways. so still kind of levites but not all of them only the santified ones that stayed true to God.

References
Eze 40:46 (nasb)
Eze 43:19 (nasb)
Eze 44:15 (nasb)
Eze 48:11 (nasb)
"{It shall be} for the priests who are sanctified of the sons of Zadok, who have kept My charge, who did not go astray when the sons of Israel went astray as the Levites went astray."

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, SirNic, and thanks for writing again.

Are you trying to point out that certain believers will receive greater responsibilities or special duties during the kingdom age? If so, I totally agree with you! Those kingdom believers who were more faithful and obedient to God during their lives during Israel's program (OT-early Acts; Hebrews-Rev) WILL receive the reward of a higher position in the kingdom reigning with Christ. Those who find themselves still alive in the milennium, not having taken the mark of the beast, may risk being thrown into outer darkness for not having placed faith in their Messiah, Jesus Christ, and not having obeyed his commandments. (Matt. 25)

What I don't agree with is that a fate such as that can happen to a member of the Body of Christ, who trusted Christ and him alone for their salvation, even if they later prove unfaithful to him. We have eternal security. (Eph. 1:12-14; Rom. 8:38, 39)

Isn't God's grace wonderful?
Deborah

Anonymous said...

Hi all,

I've been reading this blog and the comments with great interest as a friend of recently said Chuck had gone onto dodgy ground.

I have been blessed by God through Chuck's teachings for many years, as the same as i have been blessed by many other teachers as well.

I have not always personally agreed with everything Chuck has said nor what Calvary has taught. This is not a problem for me, my own church and myself as well(!) have not always taught correct things as well. Something, for myself, i hope i always confess and endevour to seek God for His truth.

I think i shall get the book to get his opinion on the subject. I don't have too much of a problem initially about the chastisement if this is true as Hebrews 12:5-6 and Hebrews 12:11 shows that God does discipline and that it's done out of love for our benefit and to produce righteousness and peace in us. So, in that sense Christ's sacriface for us does not mean that we are shielded from discipline and if that discipline means having some 'time out' to be fully sanctified and to be taught by God before fully joining the Kingdom then this doesn't sound totally unrealistic. I'm just blessed to be in His family!

It does make me think about human parents who might send children to their room earlier while the rest of the family has dinner. This doesn't mean the parents don't love that child any less than their other children - its just that the child has to learn to behave appropriately before re-joining the mealtimes.

For me, i will be assured in the fact that under His grace i am a miserable sinner who has been redeemed to God's family and that God loves me utterly. I have come across things before in the Bible that it can be hard to understand (i'm not particually scholarly!) and when i've got myself in a tizzle God has asked me 'If i trust Him?' 'Of course i do' i reply and i feel a great peace that some things i just won't be able to reconcile and the important thing is that I trust God and know He is faithful and just and loving and that i continue to be in a relationship with the most awsome fantastic God!

Please don't get me wrong, i think it's super important to try with all our strength to understand God's Word but when it comes to a point in which it leads to believers being unkind to one another then something has gone wrong.

I do take the point of Martin Luther though, he did have to ruffle some feathers to get God's message out! But this was against an establishment of terrible oppresion and utterly destructive deception. I'm not sure, that even if chuck is in the wrong, this would count as the same :o)

One of my favourite passages is (and forgive me if its not quite the right context!) Romans 14:19

"Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and mutual edification"

I always remember a story from Brother Yun in his Heavenly man book whereby a large group of church leaders who had some theological differences were arguing so much over their differences they forgot they were family in Christ and placed being scriptually right over being loving. Brother Yun says he heard from God to wash all their feet, and afterwards it was like their eyes were openned and they remembered their connection to each other in Jesus and started crying, realising that love was the hightest calling.

Anyhoo, just thought i'd add my thoughts to the debate!

With love to my brothers and sisters on this blog

Dave

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, Dave, and thanks for writing!

I too have been blessed by Chuck & Nancy's ministry, esp. as regards prophecy & eternal security. I felt a kinship w/them because of it. But with great influence comes responsibility; and they have failed their audience by becoming hereticks, whom Paul tells us to reject. (Titus 3:9-11). Hereticks, you cry! Yes, because they subvert the believer's identity in Christ by claiming some will undergo rejection & punishment after death.

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference; For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." (Rom. 3:22-23). All believers have sinned, but Christ paid for those sins with his blood, imputing to us "the righteousness of God" by his own faithfulness. To know this, but then to say that God will in any way punish us for the sins his Son died for is heresy.

Paul instructs bishops to hold "fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers [contradictors]. For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision." (titus 1:9-10). The Misslers have identified themselves with the "circumcision" in their dogged choice to return to Israel's program with its laws and curses, instead of to the "revelation of the mystery" given to Paul in this new dispensation of grace. What love are they showing their followers if they lead them down a path that leads nowhere today & denigrates the believer's position in Christ?

Love is important, but truth is more so, because who wishes those we love to live in darkness? If the reformers had let love rule their actions, we'd all be Roman Catholics living in fear of purgatorial fire. "Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things therewith one may edify another." (Rom. 14:19) That's what the knowledge of being reckoned dead and "hid with Christ in God" (Col. 3:3) leads to: peace in our minds & hearts and joyful edification to those to whom it's made known. That is the reason I bother to write this blog.

Marty said...

I think you should look a little deeper. It makes a lot of sense and certainly levels the playing field. He also says in his book to go and find out for yourself. Rather than needing a wake up call, I think really he is providing a wake up call. Chuck is well aware of the implications in leading people astray as a teacher - and I don't think he is going down that road at all.

Deborah Collins said...

Marty, Putting so much as one toenail on the law ground of Israel's program (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Hebrews-Revelation) is leading people astray with you.

Grace and peace,
Deborah

Anonymous said...

Aren't you rather hypocritical? You hold to the heresy of Darbyism and yet act like you're biblical while Missler is not. In reality, you both hold to heresy. Darbyisn, i.e. dispensationism, is one of the few things Spurgeon outright called heresy.

Read again Paul's charge to Timothy and take note that Christ judges ALL at His appearing, not 1,000 years later.

Deborah Collins said...

Hi Anonymous,

Paul's words to Timothy in 2Tim 4:1: "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;" are not necessarily a time reference to our own judgment for rewards at the judgment seat of Christ, but are a sobering reminder of the final authority of Christ to admit some to his kingdom and exclude others. We who are in Christ by believing need have no fear; God will in no wise reject those who are in his Son.

As for Spurgeon's opinion of dispensationalism, I care not a fig for he is the heretick, not I. Anyone who believes God predestines some to damnation & some to glory blasphemes the character of God. Read my articles on Calvinism. (And Missler has strayed from dispensationalism by blurring the lines between Israel's prophetic program & our mystery one.)

Anonymous said...

Hi Deborah,
I have been attending Calvary Chapel for some years now. I still don't feel connected to anyone and if I'm not there/stop going no one notices. No - it's not about me but I need some Christians to connect with. I question some of Calvary's teaching and have looked for a different church without success. WHERE did you go after leaving Calvary Chapel of Appleton?
Need to Know - JJ

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, JJ! I'm sorry to hear about your experience at Calvary Chapel. In my case the people were friendly & caring & I found leaving them more difficult than leaving the wrong doctrine. I still consider many of them to be friends. There are many truly saved people there who seem to put up with the legalistic, insecurity teachings just because they like the atmosphere & prophecy teaching!

If you've read any of this blog, you'll notice that I believe the Bible should be "cut straight" between Israel's prophetic law program and our mystery grace program, so I sought a church that teaches accordingly. We travel 40 miles to New Franken, WI, once a month to listen to the absolute best grace preaching we've found! If you can find a mid-Acts (Body of Christ began w/Paul) dispensational church in your area, you'd be well-advised to check it out. You'll find down-home folks there who are on fire for the word of God, rightly-divided and Paul's doctrinal teaching on who we have been made to be in Christ when we first trusted him.

I wish you all the best in finding that treasure somewhere close to home. There's always the Internet as well. Shorewood Bible Church (www.shorewoodbiblechurch.org) has live broadcasts Sun & Wed. You can also listen to rightly-divided radio on AM 1490 in Chattanooga (info on my sidebar).

Write anytime; my email address is deborah.kuzenski@gmail.com. I'd love to fellowship w/you!

Debbie

Scott said...

Interesting. Before I came to right division, I often said that there was a difference between a Jew in the Wilderness and a Jew in Canaan. Jews that died in the Wilderness never possessed their inheritance. They never had "rest."

As Christians, so I thought, we also had to "leave the Wilderness" into "spiritual Canaan". Those Christians who die in the Wilderness will be cast into Outer Darkness. Those who made it into Spiritual Canaan would be given the right to reign over cities.

A few problems here - one, I never just what it was in a Christian's life that was the 'crossing' point into spiritual Canaan. And two, this isn't rightly divided. :D

Scott said...

sorry for the typos. *I just never knew* is what it should say in the last paragraph

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, Scott,

Thank you for your comment! The main difference between you and Chuck & Nancy is that you came to realize the error of your former thinking! And what a huge difference that is! You found your way all the way to understanding the "why" and not just the "what" of the matter. You fulfilled the express desire of God: "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim. 2:4).

I hope and pray that the Missler's do the same some day soon!

Deborah

Patrick J said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Patrick J said...

I have been following Chucks teachings for about 1 year. Through him I have been able to truly understand the word in ways I never have before. Before last year I called myself a Christian but I had no clue what it meant. I lived through the flesh. I have not read that book and I understand your argument is in separating the law from grace. I actually attend CC in Dana Point with Pastor Peter John Coursen. The last several sermons have been about separating grace from the law. He constantly reiterates "that it is by grace we are saved through faith." I also think that if we believe then shouldn't our actions show this. This may scare people from the faith. If we have to act in ways that represent the law; but don't you think the reverse is true too? I call myself a Christian and then I am acting as a heathen. That is hypocrisy is it not? I lived this way for years. Thinking I can knowingly sin still believe and go to heaven. As appealing as this sounds it also seems like a unbeliever because if I did believe my actions would be quite different. I guess in the end only God knows the true heart.

Chuck like others have said "challenges his listeners to always research his views". Also, you can listen to every single one of his commentaries for free on his sight. One of his most important subjects is that the Old Testament is the New testament Concealed and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. It is all about being an ambassador of Christ. I have heard countless arguments for reasons people don't believe is because of the hypocrisy they see in other so called Christians. So either point of view can lead believers or potential believers away.

I do agree that through this people will see that it is the Word that is the Truth not the words of men.(no matter how wise or brilliant they are or seem to be) I was falling into that fallacy with Missler, just listening and agreeing not even opening my bible. I recently ran across a YouTube of him a 9 part video of his involvement in various large so called evil companies and also his recent involvement in a company called SWANsat. A satellite system that will cover the globe and replace internet phone and tv services for one low price. There will be uninterrupted service every part of the world accept the polar caps.(WIFI on steroids) This man was claiming he is the tool of the Devil unloading a number of assumptions. That this is the tool for global government and the coming NWO. I was very distraught from it. Not because of the attacks but because of my folly as a simple fool. I tend to lack discernment and believe almost anything. I truly believed this man for some time. Thinking that everything I learned from Chuck was literally of the devil. But, through him and this blog I have found that my lack of discernment can really lead me astray. (I am not trying to put you on the same level as this man what so ever. He is attacking Missler on every level.) That only the word of God is the truth. He made me search for the answer and honestly I found it here.

I learned from this blog and am grateful for your knowledge on this matter. I saw that the blog started 2 years ago and was pleased to see it still active. The subject of the Misslers has been weighing on me and your blog has helped me with that load. That the knowledge I have learned from Missler was just a small step. That my true path is through the Bible and the work of the Holy Spirit. I must not hold a man on a pedistool only God deserves that. We are all just brothers and sisters and there will always be a quarrel. Lets just hope we can seprate a difference of opinioin from acts of heresy as we saw in th RMC and the Synagogue.

I would love your insighst on my thoughts. I have only posted them in the hopes of learning from you and others on this blog.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1'1

As iron sharpens Iron
Patrick J

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, Patrick, and thank you for taking the time to read some of this blog. I agree that Chuck really knows his Bible, but it's also important to understand which things in it pertain to us today in this grace age. Many things in God's program with Israel were "concealed" in the OT, then "revealed" in the NT -- but, God's mystery program with & for the Body of Christ was completely "hid" (Eph 3:9) and kept "secret" (Rom 16:25) in the OT. That's where Chuck & Calvary Chapel err. They apply everything in scripture to us today in some way, even if only symbolically. I bet your CC pastor is currently in Romans, isn't he? Whichever book CC is presently preaching, that's what they apply to you. When he gets to James or Revelation, watch out! Legalism will be the order of the day!

You say it's dangerous to believe there's nothing required of us but faith in order to be saved; but Paul makes clear that the opposite is dangerous: trusting even in part in your own efforts! (Eph 2:8, 9; Titus 3:5, etc.) I sincerely hope that at some point in your life, you completely trust the Lord Jesus Christ, that he did it ALL in his death, burial, & resurrection. That's the only way God will place Christ's "test score: PERFECT," on YOUR test paper! Sure, do all the good works you want and live righteously! But don't try to help God save you; he's already taken care of that when he sent his Son to die for you.

Come back anytime, Patrick! I like how you're willing to study a matter out.

Deborah

Patrick J said...

Deborah,

Thanks for the quick reply. I have the android bible app for scriptures of the day and guess what it was.
Romans 6:14
"For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace."
Untill recently I never knew there was a difference in heaven between the Carnal Christian and the Overcomer. That there are crowns to be earned if Heaven. From what I have learned from them is that you still go to heaven but there are rewards for how you lived your life. I thought that the book was that just a stonger more detailed arguement for it. Not that we would suffer if we did not live righteously, but feel the disapointment and sorrow for not doing so.

The one thing I do know is that more I sin the more seperation I feel from the Lord. It may just be guilt. I have always believed that it is through Him alone that I am saved and that there is nothing I can do to make that salvation possible. I guess that through them I came to think that my actions represent my belief and if I believe I would act accordingly. I have always had my doubts in my beliefs.(mainly because of my belief in salvation and how I was living) Is Jesus the answer? Of all the pasotrs I have listened to Chuck Missler is the one that has reaffirmed this.

Even though my actions will not get me to heaven my walk will bring me closer to Him while I am here. If I truly want to find Gods will for me then I need to live righteously and study the Word. To truly find the answers to these detailed differences one needs the Holy Spirit's guidance

Chuck's Idea of this may be apostate. I never felt that he or Calvary has ever given me the idea that my actions will get me to Heaven. Just my actions represent who I am as a ambassador of Christ and that law is a guide to find his will. Jesus summarized the law in 2 commands to Love your God with all your heart soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself. That to me is the walk we as Christians should follow while we spread the Gospel. This way there the answer of Grace through faith will have a uncompromising answer to others willing to accept Christ.

In regards to CC and were he is in the Bible. He has touched on Romans but he has spent time in 2Timothy, Galations, Hebrews, Luke, the Psalms, and Genesis. That we cannot do it. That only through His grace we are saved. So he is on the subject of Grace vs the Law.



As Iron Sharpens Iron

Patrick

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, Patrick, Thanks for returning.

I think part of the problem for those who respect Chuck Missler is that they are unable to reconcile the salvation message Chuck used to teach with the one he teaches now which is a perversion of the true gospel for today found in Paul's writings. You like Chuck & Nancy so you try to make their new square pegs fit into the old round holes.

The answer lies in understanding from Paul's scriptures just who we are made to be in Christ when we have trusted him alone for our salvation. We are the "righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21). This is true no matter what we do or don't do in our walk. God sees us and loves us just as if we are as righteous as his Son, Jesus Christ. You may feel alienated from God due to your behavior but in reality you are as close to his heart as his only dear Son! There's nothing you can do to ever make him push you away. He wants only the best for you and enjoys showering you with "all spiritual blessings in Christ." (Eph 1:3).

Like you say, you cannot lose your salvation; but you will never be punished or made to feel sorry in heaven. The Judgment Seat is where Christ examines those things you have or have not accomplished in the body of Christ in accordance with the doctrine laid down by our apostle - Paul so that you may be appointed to an appropriate place of authority and service in the heavenly realm. No one will be thrown into outer darkness. You will be happy and satisfied with the reward you receive!

As you say you read in Romans, we're not under law but under grace so we need not look to the law to find God's will but to the godly doctrines laid down by Paul that will be fulfilled naturally as we yield to the indwelling Holy Spirit. Yes, the will of God for our lives is found in his word, specifically in his word to us through Paul, the administrator of this dispensation of grace. (Eph 3). God wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and that can happen only if we rightly divide his word between Israel's law which has been set aside and our grace which we are to appropriate and enjoy.

I sincerely hope you will read some of the basic articles on this blog about right division and also that you will visit the sites I have linked to at the bottom of the page. When you know from his word the unconditional love God has for you when you truly trust his Son, you will find joy and peace -- something you can't get from reading books by those who don't have that understanding. (2 Tim 2:15)

Deborah

gustin54 said...

Deborah: where are you regarding Paul's teaching that a woman show only be teaching women? If men read your blog are they out of the will of the Creator.

Jerry in Fruita

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, Jerry,

My understanding is that Paul was preventing women usurping the authority that rightfully belongs to godly men; the Greek bears this out in 2 Timothy 2:11-15.

This is just what you called it, a "blog." It's a journal of my thoughts and impressions which a reader may or may not learn from, not a formal teaching tool; nor do I stand up in mixed company and formally "teach."

You might notice that I often give credit for a concept or interpretation of scripture to a male teacher, and that even though my dispensational position has changed, I have placed myself under the authority of male Bible teacher, Brian Kelson.

You're free to make up your own mind as to whether it's out of God's will for today if you read my blog, but I am comfortable that I am in God's will in publishing it because it declares the truth of his word.

Jerry, you're welcome here always.

Deborah

Anonymous said...

How do you mean 'all have been reconciled to God through Jesus Christ especially the believer'? Isn't this universalism?

Deborah Collins said...

Thanks, Anonymous, for stopping by! No, it's just referencing 2 Cor. 5:18-21, where Paul is inspired to write, (in v. 19): "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." That's the world, my friend - not just believers. But, only believers will be reap the benefit of spending eternity with God in Christ. For more, see my article with the tag: Universal Reconciliation does the Bible teach it?

Thanks again,
Deborah

Anonymous said...

Galatians 3:16 is clear regarding the Promise which is to say the Church is not to Dispense but is here to stay. Israel transgressed the old Covenant, so they have to be regrafted into the New Covenant & hence no Separate Election but like any other so Neither Jew nor Gentile. Dispensationalism will only lead to that great LIE of the Golden calf "These are your gods that brought thee out of Egypt" looking into the many alters within the Israeli supreme court exposed by the mighty hand of God " For they loved not the truth & for this reason God sends them a strong Delusion that they may believe THE LIE

Deborah Collins said...

Hi, Anonymous and thank you for your comments. I'd welcome further light on what you're saying if you care to write back; as I'm not fully understanding your point.

The important thing, no matter how God's word is to be interpreted, is that we have trusted Jesus Christ alone for our salvation from the consequences of sin. Amen?

Love in Christ,
Deborah